Honda Car Forum

On 09/14/2009 04:04 PM, Leftie wrote:
> Elle wrote:
>> Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>>> Are the deposits sooty with a bit of an oily feel to them, or are they
>>> actually covered in liquid oil?
>>
>> They are much closer to sooty with an oily feel than they are to
>> looking liquidy. E.g. they are nowhere near as liquidy and bad as the
>> "oil fouled" plug shown at
>> http://www.cyclefish.com/forum/topic...ex/3706/1#3821
>> . Do you think this matters?
>>
>> Like I wrote, the ceramic part just beneath where the spark occurs is
>> black-ish, sooty-ish on three of four of my Civic's plugs. Where the
>> spark occurs is a textured brown, like some deposits are accumulating
>> there, but they're not black (yet?). I figure this is because 1/2
>> quart every 600 miles or so is not a lot of oil burning. A concern,
>> but it could be a lot worse.
>>
>> I should have wrote my theory now is that it is either the oil control
>> rings /or/ the valve guides that are going. I have looked into
>> replacing the valve guides but assuming I wanted to gamble that it is
>> the guides and not the oil control rings, it seems cheaper to just buy
>> a new head. I think I'd consider a new used engine from a reputable
>> used Honda engine seller, first.
>>
>
>
> The compression test with and without heavy oil may help you to decide.
> It takes 5 minutes.

that tests compression rings, not oil control rings.

On 09/14/2009 07:30 PM, Elle wrote:
> cf...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote:
>> Since you have resigned yourself to possibly replacing the motor in
>> the distant future, try experimenting with heavier oils (20W50, 20W40,
>> 10W40).
>
> Yes I think this is definitely worth experimenting with a little. I
> will probably give the Mobil 1 a chance for another six months, then
> try a heavier oil.
>
>> Looks like you have nothing to lose. 1200 miles per quart isn't
>> great, but its not that bad. At least it isn't 500 miles per quart. Try a
>> 20W50 oil for 2000 miles and see if the oil consumption is reduced. Try
>> what the other person said, which was a 10W30 oil and the additive
>> called "CD-2".
>
> I will research the CD-2, thanks.

stay away from that stuff. it cokes up engines something chronic. it's
just a short term fix designed to shift junk off a sellers driveway.


>
>> I wonder if that stinkin' dealer just dumped in the cheapest 20W50 or
>> straight 40 weight oil he could buy, and told you it was Mobil synthetic.
>
> Yes it is something to wonder about. It was a new car (Nissan) dealer
> who of course flips trade-ins. They explained they rarely took such
> old cars and sold them off the lot. It could have been the original
> owner who possibly added something. Either way, ISTM when a car has
> more than say 150k miles, it is all about buyer beware, no? Even with
> a 1-owner car. Maybe this is why new car dealers rarely deal (as far
> as used car sales on the lot) with cars more than ten years old,
> except to auction them elsewhere.
>
> Fortunately, very worst case, if this car should suddenly die on me,
> no big deal. I will go chase down another used car, this time more
> carefully researched. Though I think it is unlikely it will die; it
> really does run well, and I am on top of its maintenance. Meanwhile I
> will run some "experiments" as we are calling them at this point and
> try to learn more.
>
> Thanks for the input.

On 09/14/2009 10:13 AM, Tegger wrote:
> Elle<honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:def92596-0cc4-4d9c-a0c4-
> 8dd358d259ca@l34g2000vba.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>
>> I am not rushing to do a compression test right away because, as you
>> noted Jim, and is noted elsewhere on the web, if the compression rings
>> are not worn, but the oil rings are, the compression will be fine and
>> so the test tells one nothing. Getting 42 mpg for the last six months
>> suggests to me compression is likely (though not definitely) good. The
>> tool is cheap enough and the process simple enough that I will do this
>> sometime for my own education, though.
>
>
> Have you exmained the spark plugs? Differences in coating color and
> deposition are tell-tales to engine problems.
>
> If one plug is significantly different than the others, then you know there
> is an issue with that cylinder.
>
>
or it's the only one working right!

Tegger wrote:

> Elle wrote in

>> New info: I removed all the spark plugs again today and see I missed
>> an important difference among them: Three of the plugs' ceramic areas
>> (firing end, directly adjacent to where the spark occurs, not the wire
>> end) are dark and look a bit oil fouled.

> Then there's your culprit: Worn rings.

IMO, it's also possible that the rings are merely gunked up with carbon
deposits. (Barring abuse, a 200K Civic should be far from worn out,
right folks?) If so, it might be possible to clean the gunk and free
the stuck rings, allowing them to resume normal service.

Does the engine have any sludge, or other signs of over-stressed oil?

I'm not a big fan of oil additives, but AutoRx seems to be a legitimate
product that actually works. It's a mix of esters that are quite
effective in cleaning up sludge and carbonized oil from your engine.

Or you might try running a good synthetic for a few changes. Pick one
with a close spread of viscosities, ie. 10w-30. Such an oil should have
fewer volatile viscosity index modifiers; these VII additives are
supposedly one of the main sources of engine deposits. Over on BITOG,
M1 10W-30 high mileage mix has a good reputation for cleaning, but any
good 10w-30 Syn should help. If you really want to clean the car, run
Redline. It's ester based, VII free, and cleans like mad.

One of these options may well help, and will be vastly less expensive
and troublesome than disassembling the engine.

0.02c

ps.

Here's a pretty good BITOG thread discussing coked-up rings.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1460891

Greg Campbell <nos...@null.net> wrote:
> Does the engine have any sludge, or other signs of over-stressed oil?

I have not taken off the oil pan, but during the three oil changes
since March, I did not notice sludge when transferring oil to an old
milk jug for recycling. I was under the valve cover doing the valve
stem seal replacement and of course mopped up a lot of oil in the
process. It did not seem sludg-y or particularly dirty.

I read the Bob-is-the-oil-guy thread and am researching the AutoRX
further, for one, now.

Thanks for the input.

On Sep 14, 9:04*pm, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>*even if the
> valve guides are chronically worn, if the seals are sealing, there's no
> oil loss.

A lot of auto maintenance sites (not just random people posting) state
that either the valve stem seals or the valve guides may be failing. I
understand what you're saying but it is hard for me to say from the
Civic shop manual drawing whether a new, properly installed valve stem
seal alone will ensure no leakage in this area.

Regardless, for now I am going the route of trying to clean things up
with continued use of Mobil 1 and/or maybe Auto-RX.

On 09/15/2009 03:53 AM, Elle wrote:
> On Sep 14, 9:04�pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> �even if the
>> valve guides are chronically worn, if the seals are sealing, there's no
>> oil loss.
>
> A lot of auto maintenance sites (not just random people posting) state
> that either the valve stem seals or the valve guides may be failing.

1. your honda valve guides are not submerged.
2. it's been known for internet "experts" to be full of it.
3. i've experimented with /no/ seals - you lose a little, but it's not a
massive source of loss.


> I
> understand what you're saying but it is hard for me to say from the
> Civic shop manual drawing whether a new, properly installed valve stem
> seal alone will ensure no leakage in this area.

unless it's lost flexibility, is worn or cracked, it will.


>
> Regardless, for now I am going the route of trying to clean things up
> with continued use of Mobil 1 and/or maybe Auto-RX.

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ba6dnexjW938CTLXnZ2dnUVZ_rOdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> On 09/15/2009 03:53 AM, Elle wrote:
>> On Sep 14, 9:04?pm, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> ?even if the
>>> valve guides are chronically worn, if the seals are sealing,
>>> there's no
>>> oil loss.
>>
>> A lot of auto maintenance sites (not just random people posting)
>> state
>> that either the valve stem seals or the valve guides may be
>> failing.
>
> 1. your honda valve guides are not submerged.

It doesn't matter. Oil is being flung all over the inside of the valve
cover. If your guides are worn and your seals are worn, oil will be
sucked in through the intake guides.

> 2. it's been known for internet "experts" to be full of it.

True

> 3. i've experimented with /no/ seals - you lose a little, but it's
> not a massive source of loss.

True as well. I've had engines that did not even use valve stem seals
(Jensen-Healey 2.0L Lotus 4 cylinder) and others that only used them
on the intake valves. However, when you say "you use a little," that
might add up to a lot in the eyes of some people. For a new engine
with minimal valve stem to valve guide clearance, the loss will be
small. However, for an older engine with worn stems and guides, the
loss can be significant. In the old days this was still trivial in
many cases. However, with modern engines, severely worn guides can
casue several problems - excessive air leakage will screw up the PCM's
calculation for fuel delivery and excessive oil consumption can damage
a catalytic converter.

>> I
>> understand what you're saying but it is hard for me to say from the
>> Civic shop manual drawing whether a new, properly installed valve
>> stem
>> seal alone will ensure no leakage in this area.
>
> unless it's lost flexibility, is worn or cracked, it will.

New seals will help, but becasue of the excessive play, they won't
last as long, and they will still let more oil past than seals on
unworn guides and stems. Seals have to allow some oil past to keep the
valve stems and guides lubricated, so they aren't perfect seals by
design.

>> Regardless, for now I am going the route of trying to clean things
>> up
>> with continued use of Mobil 1 and/or maybe Auto-RX.

If the engine is only using a half a quart per 600 miles, I'd just
drive it. With 197,000 miles on the engine, it is not just the valve
train that is worn.

Ed

Thanks for the further input, Jim and Ed. I will try to get a better
look at the valve guides on the next trip to the junkyard, for
continued education on this point.