Honda Car Forum

#61 (**permalink**) 12 Jan 2009, 04:16 pm

In article <gkecsg$lji$2@news.motzarella.org>,
Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2009-01-11, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <80bkm4955gn9kkr2dh8eg86lpsfd9pp5e9@4ax.com>,
> > Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <gkbqg8$ic1$1@blue.rahul.net>, John David Galt
> >> <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The true purpose of the environmental movement is to keep the
> >> >prices of homes, especially good (single-family detached) homes,
> >> >outrageously high and climbing higher forever.
> >>
> >> Now there's a fascinating statement. I'd love to see the full
> >> thesis and supporting evidence that backs it all up, but since
> >> this is USENET I know I never will.
> >
> > And if that's the case, Wall Street and the banking industry is
> > chock full of environmentalists.
>
> In the sense of using environmentalism to gain wealth and power, yes.

I was being ironic in response to Galt's claim about the true purpose of
the environmental movement- a claim which about a chock full o' nuts as
can be.

#62 (**permalink**) 12 Jan 2009, 04:48 pm

On 2009-01-12, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <gkecsg$lji$2@news.motzarella.org>,
> Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2009-01-11, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> > In article <80bkm4955gn9kkr2dh8eg86lpsfd9pp5e9@4ax.com>,
>> > Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In message <gkbqg8$ic1$1@blue.rahul.net>, John David Galt
>> >> <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >The true purpose of the environmental movement is to keep the
>> >> >prices of homes, especially good (single-family detached) homes,
>> >> >outrageously high and climbing higher forever.
>> >>
>> >> Now there's a fascinating statement. I'd love to see the full
>> >> thesis and supporting evidence that backs it all up, but since
>> >> this is USENET I know I never will.
>> >
>> > And if that's the case, Wall Street and the banking industry is
>> > chock full of environmentalists.
>>
>> In the sense of using environmentalism to gain wealth and power, yes.
>
> I was being ironic in response to Galt's claim about the true purpose of
> the environmental movement- a claim which about a chock full o' nuts as
> can be.

It's just one facet, not the 'true purpose'. Government takes from some
people and gives to others so those others benefit. It uses excuses for
this to cover it, the environment is one of those exuses.

#63 (**permalink**) 13 Jan 2009, 03:46 am

Brent wrote:

> Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Tim Howard wrote:
> >
> >> Oregon looks at taxing mileage instead of gasoline
> >
> > The basic problem is that government in much of the west (not just the USA)
> > is now out of control and any pretence at democracy is only nominal.
> >
> > The events of the last year or so have convinced me that only a full scale
> > revolution can restore peoples' rights and stop government poking its nose
> > into stuff it has no business in.
>
> Nanny state finally went after something you care about?

It's the economy stupid ! But they've become unstoppable here now. They just
ignore protest.

Graham

#64 (**permalink**) 13 Jan 2009, 03:50 am

Brent wrote:

> On 2009-01-09, necromancer wrote:
>
> >> they've spent billions of dollars protecting
> >>delicate corporations from the hoi polloi. Are you saying that the
> >>Republicans were *wrong?*
> >
> > Yep. And now, it is payback time...
>
> Exactly how? By the democrats also expanding the size and scope of
> government? The people are going to be the losers again.

The real problem is the party system. The exist only to promote and enlarge
themselves. All Representatives and Senators ( MPs here - not sure what we'd do with
the Upper House) should have to be independents.

Graham

#65 (**permalink**) 13 Jan 2009, 08:41 am

On 2009-01-13, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Brent wrote:
>
>> Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > Tim Howard wrote:
>> >
>> >> Oregon looks at taxing mileage instead of gasoline
>> >
>> > The basic problem is that government in much of the west (not just the USA)
>> > is now out of control and any pretence at democracy is only nominal.
>> >
>> > The events of the last year or so have convinced me that only a full scale
>> > revolution can restore peoples' rights and stop government poking its nose
>> > into stuff it has no business in.
>>
>> Nanny state finally went after something you care about?
>
> It's the economy stupid ! But they've become unstoppable here now. They just
> ignore protest.

So they did damage something you cared about.

They aren't doing anything differently than they did before, just more
of it. It was just us kooks that warned of the consquences.

#66 (**permalink**) 13 Jan 2009, 08:43 am

On 2009-01-13, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Brent wrote:
>
>> On 2009-01-09, necromancer wrote:
>>
>> >> they've spent billions of dollars protecting
>> >>delicate corporations from the hoi polloi. Are you saying that the
>> >>Republicans were *wrong?*
>> >
>> > Yep. And now, it is payback time...
>>
>> Exactly how? By the democrats also expanding the size and scope of
>> government? The people are going to be the losers again.
>
> The real problem is the party system. The exist only to promote and enlarge
> themselves. All Representatives and Senators ( MPs here - not sure what we'd do with
> the Upper House) should have to be independents.

you're getting closer to figuring it out. The facade of 'democracy' is
finally falling off before your eyes.

#67 (**permalink**) 13 Jan 2009, 02:05 pm

On Jan 8, 12:16*am, Tim Howard <tim.how...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
> Oregon looks at taxing mileage instead of gasoline
> By RYAN KOST, Associated Press Writer Ryan Kost, Associated Press Writer
> * *– Sat Jan 3, 7:38 am ET
>
> PORTLAND, Ore. – Oregon is among a growing number of states exploring
> ways to tax drivers based on the number of miles they drive instead of
> how much gas they use, even going so far as to install GPS monitoring
> devices in 300 vehicles. The idea first emerged nearly 10 years ago as
> Oregon lawmakers worried that fuel-efficient cars such as gas-electric
> hybrids could pose a threat to road upkeep, which is paid for largely
> with gasoline taxes.
>
> "I'm glad we're taking a look at it before the potholes get so big that
> we can't even get out of them," said Leroy Younglove, a Portland driver
> who participated in a recent pilot program.
>
> The proposal is not without critics, including drivers who are concerned
> about privacy and others who fear the tax could eliminate the financial
> incentive for buying efficient vehicles.
>
> But Oregon is ahead of the nation in exploring the concept, even though
> it will probably be years before any mileage tax is adopted.
>
> Congress is talking about it, too. A congressional commission has
> envisioned a system similar to the prototype Oregon tested in 2006-2007.
>
> The National Commission on Surface Transportation Infrastructure
> Financing is considering calling for higher gas taxes to keep highways,
> bridges and transit programs in good shape.
>
> But over the long term, commission members say, the nation should
> consider taxing mileage rather than gasoline as drivers use more
> fuel-efficient and electric vehicles.
>
> As cars burn less fuel, "the gas tax isn't going to fill the bill," said
> Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon, a member of the House Transportation and
> Infrastructure Committee.
>
> The next Congress "could begin to set the stage, perhaps looking at some
> much more robust pilot programs, to begin the research, to work with
> manufacturers."
>
> Gov. Ted Kulongoski has included development money for the tax in his
> budget proposal, and interest is growing in a number of other states.
>
> Governors in Idaho and Rhode Island have considered systems that would
> require drivers to report their mileage when they register vehicles.
>
> In North Carolina last month, a panel suggested charging motorists a
> quarter-cent for every mile as a substitute for the gas tax.
>
> James Whitty, the Oregon Department of Transportation employee in charge
> of the state's effort, said he's also heard talk of mileage tax
> proposals in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Minnesota.
>
> "There is kind of a coalition that's naturally forming around this," he
> said.
>
> Also fueling the search for alternatives is the political difficulty of
> raising gasoline taxes.
>
> The federal gas tax has not been raised since 1993, and nearly two dozen
> states have not changed their taxes since 1997, according to the
> American Road & Transportation Builders Association.
>
> In Oregon's pilot program, officials equipped 300 vehicles with GPS
> transponders that worked wirelessly with service station pumps, allowing
> drivers to pay their mileage tax just as they do their gas tax.
>
> Whitty said the test, which involved two gas stations in the Portland
> area, proved the idea could work.
>
> Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great
> detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such
> as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was
> done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage.
>
> The proposal envisions a gradual change, with manufacturers installing
> the technology in new vehicles because retrofitting old cars would be
> too expensive. Owners of older vehicles would continue to pay gasoline
> taxes.
>
> The difference in tax based on mileage or on gasoline would be small —
> "pennies per transaction at the pump," Whitty said.
>
> But the mileage tax still faces several major obstacles.
>
> For one, Oregon accounts for only a small part of auto sales, so the
> state can't go it alone. A multistate or national system would be needed.
>
> Another concern is that such devices could threaten privacy. Whitty said
> he and his task force have assured people that the program does not
> track detailed movement and that driving history is not stored and
> cannot be accessed by law enforcement agencies.
>
> "I think most people will come to realize there is really no tracking
> issue and will continue to buy new cars," Whitty said, noting that many
> cell phones now come equipped with GPS, which has not deterred customers.
>
> Others are worried that a mileage tax would undermine years of
> incentives to switch toward more fuel-efficient vehicles.
>
> "It doesn't seem fair," said Paul Niedergang of Portland, that a hybrid
> would be taxed as much as his Dodge pickup. "I just think the gas tax
> needs to be updated."
>
> Lynda Williams, also of Portland, was not immediately sold on the idea
> but said it was worth consideration.
>
> "We all have to be open-minded," she said. "Our current system just
> isn't working."

They are not punishing drivers of high mpg cars for their fuel
efficiency. They are extracting a charge for use of and wear and tear
on the road. Roads get worn out by the number of miles an automobile
uses the roadway and not by the mpg.

A weight-based assesment might make some sense.

#68 (**permalink**) 13 Jan 2009, 02:51 pm

In article
<471e50d9-3882-4d54-93ba-42c60e776893@p29g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
smullenjm@gmail.com wrote:

> On Jan 8, 12:16*am, Tim Howard <tim.how...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
> > Oregon looks at taxing mileage instead of gasoline
> > By RYAN KOST, Associated Press Writer Ryan Kost, Associated Press Writer
> > * ** Sat Jan 3, 7:38 am ET
> >
> > PORTLAND, Ore. * Oregon is among a growing number of states exploring
> > ways to tax drivers based on the number of miles they drive instead of
> > how much gas they use, even going so far as to install GPS monitoring
> > devices in 300 vehicles. The idea first emerged nearly 10 years ago as
> > Oregon lawmakers worried that fuel-efficient cars such as gas-electric
> > hybrids could pose a threat to road upkeep, which is paid for largely
> > with gasoline taxes.
> >
> > "I'm glad we're taking a look at it before the potholes get so big that
> > we can't even get out of them," said Leroy Younglove, a Portland driver
> > who participated in a recent pilot program.
> >
> > The proposal is not without critics, including drivers who are concerned
> > about privacy and others who fear the tax could eliminate the financial
> > incentive for buying efficient vehicles.
> >
> > But Oregon is ahead of the nation in exploring the concept, even though
> > it will probably be years before any mileage tax is adopted.
> >
> > Congress is talking about it, too. A congressional commission has
> > envisioned a system similar to the prototype Oregon tested in 2006-2007.
> >
> > The National Commission on Surface Transportation Infrastructure
> > Financing is considering calling for higher gas taxes to keep highways,
> > bridges and transit programs in good shape.
> >
> > But over the long term, commission members say, the nation should
> > consider taxing mileage rather than gasoline as drivers use more
> > fuel-efficient and electric vehicles.
> >
> > As cars burn less fuel, "the gas tax isn't going to fill the bill," said
> > Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon, a member of the House Transportation and
> > Infrastructure Committee.
> >
> > The next Congress "could begin to set the stage, perhaps looking at some
> > much more robust pilot programs, to begin the research, to work with
> > manufacturers."
> >
> > Gov. Ted Kulongoski has included development money for the tax in his
> > budget proposal, and interest is growing in a number of other states.
> >
> > Governors in Idaho and Rhode Island have considered systems that would
> > require drivers to report their mileage when they register vehicles.
> >
> > In North Carolina last month, a panel suggested charging motorists a
> > quarter-cent for every mile as a substitute for the gas tax.
> >
> > James Whitty, the Oregon Department of Transportation employee in charge
> > of the state's effort, said he's also heard talk of mileage tax
> > proposals in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Minnesota.
> >
> > "There is kind of a coalition that's naturally forming around this," he
> > said.
> >
> > Also fueling the search for alternatives is the political difficulty of
> > raising gasoline taxes.
> >
> > The federal gas tax has not been raised since 1993, and nearly two dozen
> > states have not changed their taxes since 1997, according to the
> > American Road & Transportation Builders Association.
> >
> > In Oregon's pilot program, officials equipped 300 vehicles with GPS
> > transponders that worked wirelessly with service station pumps, allowing
> > drivers to pay their mileage tax just as they do their gas tax.
> >
> > Whitty said the test, which involved two gas stations in the Portland
> > area, proved the idea could work.
> >
> > Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great
> > detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such
> > as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was
> > done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage.
> >
> > The proposal envisions a gradual change, with manufacturers installing
> > the technology in new vehicles because retrofitting old cars would be
> > too expensive. Owners of older vehicles would continue to pay gasoline
> > taxes.
> >
> > The difference in tax based on mileage or on gasoline would be small ‹
> > "pennies per transaction at the pump," Whitty said.
> >
> > But the mileage tax still faces several major obstacles.
> >
> > For one, Oregon accounts for only a small part of auto sales, so the
> > state can't go it alone. A multistate or national system would be needed.
> >
> > Another concern is that such devices could threaten privacy. Whitty said
> > he and his task force have assured people that the program does not
> > track detailed movement and that driving history is not stored and
> > cannot be accessed by law enforcement agencies.
> >
> > "I think most people will come to realize there is really no tracking
> > issue and will continue to buy new cars," Whitty said, noting that many
> > cell phones now come equipped with GPS, which has not deterred customers.
> >
> > Others are worried that a mileage tax would undermine years of
> > incentives to switch toward more fuel-efficient vehicles.
> >
> > "It doesn't seem fair," said Paul Niedergang of Portland, that a hybrid
> > would be taxed as much as his Dodge pickup. "I just think the gas tax
> > needs to be updated."
> >
> > Lynda Williams, also of Portland, was not immediately sold on the idea
> > but said it was worth consideration.
> >
> > "We all have to be open-minded," she said. "Our current system just
> > isn't working."
>
> They are not punishing drivers of high mpg cars for their fuel
> efficiency. They are extracting a charge for use of and wear and tear
> on the road. Roads get worn out by the number of miles an automobile
> uses the roadway and not by the mpg.
>
> A weight-based assesment might make some sense.

Then in that case they should lower the fuel taxes...

....but they won't.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

#69 (**permalink**) 13 Jan 2009, 08:49 pm

Alan Baker wrote:

> In article
> <471e50d9-3882-4d54-93ba-42c60e776893@p29g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> smullenjm@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>On Jan 8, 12:16 am, Tim Howard <tim.how...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Oregon looks at taxing mileage instead of gasoline
>>>By RYAN KOST, Associated Press Writer Ryan Kost, Associated Press Writer
>>> * Sat Jan 3, 7:38 am ET
>>>
>>>PORTLAND, Ore. * Oregon is among a growing number of states exploring
>>>ways to tax drivers based on the number of miles they drive instead of
>>>how much gas they use, even going so far as to install GPS monitoring
>>>devices in 300 vehicles. The idea first emerged nearly 10 years ago as
>>>Oregon lawmakers worried that fuel-efficient cars such as gas-electric
>>>hybrids could pose a threat to road upkeep, which is paid for largely
>>>with gasoline taxes.
>>>
>>>"I'm glad we're taking a look at it before the potholes get so big that
>>>we can't even get out of them," said Leroy Younglove, a Portland driver
>>>who participated in a recent pilot program.
>>>
>>>The proposal is not without critics, including drivers who are concerned
>>>about privacy and others who fear the tax could eliminate the financial
>>>incentive for buying efficient vehicles.
>>>
>>>But Oregon is ahead of the nation in exploring the concept, even though
>>>it will probably be years before any mileage tax is adopted.
>>>
>>>Congress is talking about it, too. A congressional commission has
>>>envisioned a system similar to the prototype Oregon tested in 2006-2007.
>>>
>>>The National Commission on Surface Transportation Infrastructure
>>>Financing is considering calling for higher gas taxes to keep highways,
>>>bridges and transit programs in good shape.
>>>
>>>But over the long term, commission members say, the nation should
>>>consider taxing mileage rather than gasoline as drivers use more
>>>fuel-efficient and electric vehicles.
>>>
>>>As cars burn less fuel, "the gas tax isn't going to fill the bill," said
>>>Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon, a member of the House Transportation and
>>>Infrastructure Committee.
>>>
>>>The next Congress "could begin to set the stage, perhaps looking at some
>>>much more robust pilot programs, to begin the research, to work with
>>>manufacturers."
>>>
>>>Gov. Ted Kulongoski has included development money for the tax in his
>>>budget proposal, and interest is growing in a number of other states.
>>>
>>>Governors in Idaho and Rhode Island have considered systems that would
>>>require drivers to report their mileage when they register vehicles.
>>>
>>>In North Carolina last month, a panel suggested charging motorists a
>>>quarter-cent for every mile as a substitute for the gas tax.
>>>
>>>James Whitty, the Oregon Department of Transportation employee in charge
>>>of the state's effort, said he's also heard talk of mileage tax
>>>proposals in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Colorado and Minnesota.
>>>
>>>"There is kind of a coalition that's naturally forming around this," he
>>>said.
>>>
>>>Also fueling the search for alternatives is the political difficulty of
>>>raising gasoline taxes.
>>>
>>>The federal gas tax has not been raised since 1993, and nearly two dozen
>>>states have not changed their taxes since 1997, according to the
>>>American Road & Transportation Builders Association.
>>>
>>>In Oregon's pilot program, officials equipped 300 vehicles with GPS
>>>transponders that worked wirelessly with service station pumps, allowing
>>>drivers to pay their mileage tax just as they do their gas tax.
>>>
>>>Whitty said the test, which involved two gas stations in the Portland
>>>area, proved the idea could work.
>>>
>>>Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great
>>>detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such
>>>as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was
>>>done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage.
>>>
>>>The proposal envisions a gradual change, with manufacturers installing
>>>the technology in new vehicles because retrofitting old cars would be
>>>too expensive. Owners of older vehicles would continue to pay gasoline
>>>taxes.
>>>
>>>The difference in tax based on mileage or on gasoline would be small ‹
>>>"pennies per transaction at the pump," Whitty said.
>>>
>>>But the mileage tax still faces several major obstacles.
>>>
>>>For one, Oregon accounts for only a small part of auto sales, so the
>>>state can't go it alone. A multistate or national system would be needed.
>>>
>>>Another concern is that such devices could threaten privacy. Whitty said
>>>he and his task force have assured people that the program does not
>>>track detailed movement and that driving history is not stored and
>>>cannot be accessed by law enforcement agencies.
>>>
>>>"I think most people will come to realize there is really no tracking
>>>issue and will continue to buy new cars," Whitty said, noting that many
>>>cell phones now come equipped with GPS, which has not deterred customers.
>>>
>>>Others are worried that a mileage tax would undermine years of
>>>incentives to switch toward more fuel-efficient vehicles.
>>>
>>>"It doesn't seem fair," said Paul Niedergang of Portland, that a hybrid
>>>would be taxed as much as his Dodge pickup. "I just think the gas tax
>>>needs to be updated."
>>>
>>>Lynda Williams, also of Portland, was not immediately sold on the idea
>>>but said it was worth consideration.
>>>
>>>"We all have to be open-minded," she said. "Our current system just
>>>isn't working."
>>
>>They are not punishing drivers of high mpg cars for their fuel
>>efficiency. They are extracting a charge for use of and wear and tear
>>on the road. Roads get worn out by the number of miles an automobile
>>uses the roadway and not by the mpg.
>>
>>A weight-based assesment might make some sense.
>
>
> Then in that case they should lower the fuel taxes...
>
>
> ...but they won't.
>

"Weight based" is affected by registration rates. I.E., a 20 ton dump
truck should be subject to much higher impact fees than my little ol'
Honda Civic...

JT

#70 (**permalink**) 13 Jan 2009, 08:57 pm

In article <gkgdql$drf$1@news.motzarella.org>,
Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2009-01-12, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <gkecsg$lji$2@news.motzarella.org>,
> > Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2009-01-11, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >> > In article <80bkm4955gn9kkr2dh8eg86lpsfd9pp5e9@4ax.com>,
> >> > Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In message <gkbqg8$ic1$1@blue.rahul.net>, John David Galt
> >> >> <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >The true purpose of the environmental movement is to keep the
> >> >> >prices of homes, especially good (single-family detached)
> >> >> >homes, outrageously high and climbing higher forever.
> >> >>
> >> >> Now there's a fascinating statement. I'd love to see the full
> >> >> thesis and supporting evidence that backs it all up, but since
> >> >> this is USENET I know I never will.
> >> >
> >> > And if that's the case, Wall Street and the banking industry is
> >> > chock full of environmentalists.
> >>
> >> In the sense of using environmentalism to gain wealth and power,
> >> yes.
> >
> > I was being ironic in response to Galt's claim about the true
> > purpose of the environmental movement- a claim which about a chock
> > full o' nuts as can be.
>
> It's just one facet, not the 'true purpose'. Government takes from
> some people and gives to others so those others benefit.

That's the purpose of capitalism- securing the benefit of the few at the
expense of the many. Just check the ratio of CEO incomes to those of
the average worker over the past 50 years.

> It uses excuses for this to cover it, the environment is one of those
> exuses.

Tinfoil hats help.

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