Honda Car Forum

"Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote
> Thus spake "Elle" <honda.lioness@gmail.com> :
>>Are you saying the unions are not negotiating on the basis
>>of what they get if GM yada go bankrupt? I have far more
>>confidence that the OP is the negligent one here.
>>
>
> If the Detroit 3 fold up and the Pension Guarantee Fund
> has to cover
> it, they'll get between 75 and 85% of their pensions over
> a certain
> limit. And no medical coverage.

Once the PBGC guarantee kicks in, a tax credit for health
insurance premiums kicks in also, costing the taxpayer big
time.

> If they go chapter 11, the bankruptcy judge can rewrite
> the contracts
> unilaterally.

Not the ones involving the federal government's guarantee of
pensions.

> So how are the unions winning? By being "big" and giving
> back now,
> the judge would probably be less likely to bang on them if
> chapter 11
> hits. If it's chapter 7, they really haven't lost much.

It has been well reported that the unions are compromising a
lot. Hachi needs to cite the article where he claims the
unions refuse to give anything. There is no question that
union leadership is running the numbers and playing the
odds. My point is they are not stupid.

It is a dumb public that got us to this point. I say let the
Big 3 go under, and taxpayers, suck it up while we
transition to better auto makers (Toyota, Honda et al.).
Let's promote some smarts on this topic instead of Hachi's
nonsense.

On Dec 26, 10:48*am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It has been well reported that the unions are compromising a
> lot. Hachi needs to cite the article where he claims the
> unions refuse to give anything. There is no question that
> union leadership is running the numbers and playing the
> odds. My point is they are not stupid.
>
> It is a dumb public that got us to this point. I say let the
> Big 3 go under, and taxpayers, suck it up while we
> transition to better auto makers (Toyota, Honda et al.).
> Let's promote some smarts on this topic instead of Hachi's
> nonsense.

When a wall street secretary or admin assistant gets a bigger bonus
that the average Union worker's yearly salary, something is gravely
wrong with our economic system.

If the old senile neo-cons on this list would expand their reading
material to European sources they might start clear the scales from
their eyes and the cobwebs from their brains.

<edspyhill01@yahoo.com> wrote
On Dec 26, 10:48 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It has been well reported that the unions are compromising
> a
> lot. Hachi needs to cite the article where he claims the
> unions refuse to give anything. There is no question that
> union leadership is running the numbers and playing the
> odds. My point is they are not stupid.
>
> It is a dumb public that got us to this point. I say let
> the
> Big 3 go under, and taxpayers, suck it up while we
> transition to better auto makers (Toyota, Honda et al.).
> Let's promote some smarts on this topic instead of Hachi's
> nonsense.

When a wall street secretary or admin assistant gets a
bigger bonus
that the average Union worker's yearly salary, something is
gravely
wrong with our economic system.
------

Your premises are that (1) the Big 3 are making a viable
product and (2) Wall Street secretaries' skills are
necessarily less than a union worker's; and (3) people do
not choose where to work. I reject all.

On Dec 26, 2:51*pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote
> On Dec 26, 10:48 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It has been well reported that the unions are compromising
> > a
> > lot. Hachi needs to cite the article where he claims the
> > unions refuse to give anything. There is no question that
> > union leadership is running the numbers and playing the
> > odds. My point is they are not stupid.
>
> > It is a dumb public that got us to this point. I say let
> > the
> > Big 3 go under, and taxpayers, suck it up while we
> > transition to better auto makers (Toyota, Honda et al.).
> > Let's promote some smarts on this topic instead of Hachi's
> > nonsense.
>
> When a wall street secretary or admin assistant gets a
> bigger bonus
> that the average Union worker's yearly salary, something is
> gravely
> wrong with our economic system.
> ------
>
> Your premises are that (1) the Big 3 are making a viable
> product and (2) *Wall Street secretaries' skills are
> necessarily less than a union worker's; and (3) people do
> not choose where to work. I reject all.

Oh hell, I thought you were a reasonable person.. My bad.

<edspyhill01@yahoo.com> wrote
On Dec 26, 2:51 pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote
> On Dec 26, 10:48 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > It has been well reported that the unions are
> > compromising
> > a
> > lot. Hachi needs to cite the article where he claims the
> > unions refuse to give anything. There is no question
> > that
> > union leadership is running the numbers and playing the
> > odds. My point is they are not stupid.
>
> > It is a dumb public that got us to this point. I say let
> > the
> > Big 3 go under, and taxpayers, suck it up while we
> > transition to better auto makers (Toyota, Honda et al.).
> > Let's promote some smarts on this topic instead of
> > Hachi's
> > nonsense.
>
> When a wall street secretary or admin assistant gets a
> bigger bonus
> that the average Union worker's yearly salary, something
> is
> gravely
> wrong with our economic system.
> ------
>
> Your premises are that (1) the Big 3 are making a viable
> product and (2) Wall Street secretaries' skills are
> necessarily less than a union worker's; and (3) people do
> not choose where to work. I reject all.

Oh hell, I thought you were a reasonable person.. My bad.
-----

It is true that if one is a total communist, then the
premises I gave are not reasonable.

On Dec 26, 3:23*pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote
> On Dec 26, 2:51 pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > On Dec 26, 10:48 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > It has been well reported that the unions are
> > > compromising
> > > a
> > > lot. Hachi needs to cite the article where he claims the
> > > unions refuse to give anything. There is no question
> > > that
> > > union leadership is running the numbers and playing the
> > > odds. My point is they are not stupid.
>
> > > It is a dumb public that got us to this point. I say let
> > > the
> > > Big 3 go under, and taxpayers, suck it up while we
> > > transition to better auto makers (Toyota, Honda et al.).
> > > Let's promote some smarts on this topic instead of
> > > Hachi's
> > > nonsense.
>
> > When a wall street secretary or admin assistant gets a
> > bigger bonus
> > that the average Union worker's yearly salary, something
> > is
> > gravely
> > wrong with our economic system.
> > ------
>
> > Your premises are that (1) the Big 3 are making a viable
> > product and (2) Wall Street secretaries' skills are
> > necessarily less than a union worker's; and (3) people do
> > not choose where to work. I reject all.
>
> Oh hell, I thought you were a reasonable person.. My bad.
> -----
>
> It is true that if one is a total communist, then the
> premises I gave are not reasonable.

Rriiiggght, everyone who disagrees with you is a communist.

<edspyhill01@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ff0e386f-5aed-40d1-8b0b-91e7a86d1a3b@h16g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 26, 3:23 pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote
> On Dec 26, 2:51 pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > On Dec 26, 10:48 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > It has been well reported that the unions are
> > > compromising
> > > a
> > > lot. Hachi needs to cite the article where he claims
> > > the
> > > unions refuse to give anything. There is no question
> > > that
> > > union leadership is running the numbers and playing
> > > the
> > > odds. My point is they are not stupid.
>
> > > It is a dumb public that got us to this point. I say
> > > let
> > > the
> > > Big 3 go under, and taxpayers, suck it up while we
> > > transition to better auto makers (Toyota, Honda et
> > > al.).
> > > Let's promote some smarts on this topic instead of
> > > Hachi's
> > > nonsense.
>
> > When a wall street secretary or admin assistant gets a
> > bigger bonus
> > that the average Union worker's yearly salary, something
> > is
> > gravely
> > wrong with our economic system.
> > ------
>
> > Your premises are that (1) the Big 3 are making a viable
> > product and (2) Wall Street secretaries' skills are
> > necessarily less than a union worker's; and (3) people
> > do
> > not choose where to work. I reject all.
>
> Oh hell, I thought you were a reasonable person.. My bad.
> -----
>
> It is true that if one is a total communist, then the
> premises I gave are not reasonable.

everyone who disagrees with you is a communist.
-----

No other argument (other than nonsense) will support
premises (1) through (3) above. Your fault for failing to
address them.

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:24:41 -0800 (PST), edspyhill01@yahoo.com cast forth
these pearls of wisdom...:

> On Dec 26, 10:48*am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It has been well reported that the unions are compromising a
>> lot. Hachi needs to cite the article where he claims the
>> unions refuse to give anything. There is no question that
>> union leadership is running the numbers and playing the
>> odds. My point is they are not stupid.
>>
>> It is a dumb public that got us to this point. I say let the
>> Big 3 go under, and taxpayers, suck it up while we
>> transition to better auto makers (Toyota, Honda et al.).
>> Let's promote some smarts on this topic instead of Hachi's
>> nonsense.
>
> When a wall street secretary or admin assistant gets a bigger bonus
> that the average Union worker's yearly salary, something is gravely
> wrong with our economic system.
>
> If the old senile neo-cons on this list would expand their reading
> material to European sources they might start clear the scales from
> their eyes and the cobwebs from their brains.

Wall street secretaries and administrative assistants don't get that kind
of bonus. You might have stumbled across a report of one here and there,
but it is not the norm.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 19:26:01 -0700, Elle wrote:

> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote
>> On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:21:03 -0700, Elle wrote:
>>> I want the taxpayer to suck up the losses they will take
>>> by
>>> having to pay Big 3 union workers' pensions and
>>> unemployment
>>> insurance and let the Big 3 go bankrupt.
>>
>> Other companies go bankrupt and no
>> one guarantees their pension funds.
>
> You are mistaken. Go read about the federal government's
> guarantees of pensions at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pension...ty_Corporation
>
>> Are you a Democrat, BTW? Perhaps Obama will save us...
>
> I so far have voted only Democrat in national elections.
> AFAIC it is more likely Obama and Dems than McCain and
> Repubs will save the economy. Though right now I am
> disgusted with all of them. I vote but with little hope.


Wow. Me too...

>
> The main problem is the American consumer.

We can only buy so much. But we've been buying it from China.

I'm not one to talk...I *LIKE* Japanese cars and other Japanese products,
esp cameras.

>
> OTOH, you need to read about the Great Depression and how
> the argument is strong that the government's delay c.
> 1929-1931 delayed recovery.


I understand that.

Thanks for an enlightening post. Better than coming back with a NYAH-NYAH!

"Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote
> On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 19:26:01 -0700, Elle wrote:
>
>> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote
>>> On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:21:03 -0700, Elle wrote:
>>>> I want the taxpayer to suck up the losses they will
>>>> take
>>>> by
>>>> having to pay Big 3 union workers' pensions and
>>>> unemployment
>>>> insurance and let the Big 3 go bankrupt.
>>>
>>> Other companies go bankrupt and no
>>> one guarantees their pension funds.
>>
>> You are mistaken. Go read about the federal government's
>> guarantees of pensions at
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pension...ty_Corporation
>>
>>> Are you a Democrat, BTW? Perhaps Obama will save us...
>>
>> I so far have voted only Democrat in national elections.
>> AFAIC it is more likely Obama and Dems than McCain and
>> Repubs will save the economy. Though right now I am
>> disgusted with all of them. I vote but with little hope.
>
>
> Wow. Me too...
>
>>
>> The main problem is the American consumer.
>
> We can only buy so much. But we've been buying it from
> China.
>
> I'm not one to talk...I *LIKE* Japanese cars and other
> Japanese products,
> esp cameras.

I had in mind the wishy-washy way American consumers think
these days; the keeping up with the joneses; the emphasis on
jobs that churn money instead of create something useful;
the "I paid money for health insurance so I am going to milk
it for every dollar and then some," instead of realizing
that what one pays for with insurance is peace of mind.

To me, to bailout or not to bailout is short term happiness
and long term pain (e.g. maybe the economy is stabilized for
awhile, but then we get to watch the Big 3 die a slow death,
like years, with them foisting their crappy product on an
equally stupid American public) vs. short term pain and long
term happiness (lots of unemployment for the next few years
as the Big 3's labor force migrates and higher taxes at some
point, but then we get a far more rational auto industry run
by Japanese car makers).

I am revulsed at how many think being a Democrat means
saving your blue collar neighbor's job, no matter what this
job is.

"Buy American," never made sense to me, maybe because I have
a feel for much of what I would pay for an American car goes
to these bilious, unskilled upper class executives and their
families.

> Thanks for an enlightening post. Better than coming back
> with a NYAH-NYAH!

Ditto. The way I am posting in these political threads here
in the auto newsgroups is a measure of my contempt for our
leaders in government these days.