Honda Car Forum

Jeff wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2:13 pm, Bentracer and Bentrider <lowbi...@att.net> wrote:
>> On Dec 7, 12:01 pm, buydomes...@usa.com wrote:
>>
>>> If all Americans bought American cars, the US economy would be rockin
>>> and rollin right now. Don't give me that stuff about Toyota and Honda
>>> manufacturing over here either. GM employs 130,000 in the United
>>> States. Toyota employs 30,000, Honda less than that. Most of the
>>> import jobs are just blue collar jobs also, where GM has over 50,000
>>> engineers. The Japanese automakers have brainwashed us into thinking
>>> that buying their car is an investment in this country. I say we buy
>>> from the Big Three and take our economy back.
>> i would not mind buying american cars again only if they can produce
>> quality like Honda and Toyota
>> until they can they and their UNIONS can go and $$$$ themselfs.
>> they still have not learned from their own mistakes, they just keep
>> producing the same old SHIT.
>
> Toyotas and Hondas are often made in the US.
>
> However, many cars made in the US by the Michigan 3, are high quality.
> I have a 11.5 y.o. Contour and 0.5 y.o. Focus. Both are good. No
> problems with either, other than normal wear and tear.
>
> Jeff

The sad thing is, both of those are European designs and are arguably
better than anything Ford has designed domestically.

The same can be said for GM/Holden.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

C. E. White wrote:
>
> From what I see on the local central NC roads, old domestic cars far
> out number old Toyotas and Hondas, but that is just the way I see
> things. Personal experience leads me to believe, given similar
> maintenance and driven in similar manners, domestic cars will far
> outlast Japanese cars. But that is just based on my personal
> experience and I have no data to back it up.

I don't know how long domestics vs. foreigns last, but reliability
surveys show that Japanese vehicles usually hold up better, and I
can't believe it's because their owners take better care of them.

I actually tried buying American -- once, but the dealer, which was
ranked #7 in the US among Frod dealers, treated me like crap and said
I shouldn't have expected good quality from a budget vehicle, even
though it was Frod's most reliable one at the time, along with the
F-150. They also said that the lumpy bondo on the sides of the roof
wasn't a defect because all cars of that model had the same defect.
Yes, they did refer to the non-defect as a defect.

<buydomestic@usa.com> wrote in message
news:880a57a2-9f6e-4fd7-b631-0543baf7e436@j32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> If all Americans bought American cars, the US economy would be rockin
> and rollin right now. Don't give me that stuff about Toyota and Honda
> manufacturing over here either. GM employs 130,000 in the United
> States. Toyota employs 30,000, Honda less than that. Most of the
> import jobs are just blue collar jobs also, where GM has over 50,000
> engineers. The Japanese automakers have brainwashed us into thinking
> that buying their car is an investment in this country. I say we buy
> from the Big Three and take our economy back.

The manufacturing end of the Big 3 is a bit more muddled than that. Making
some cars in Mexico, outsourcing engines and transmissions from Germany,
France, and England for instance. Oddly, Ford in the past assembled the
Focus in Mexico. In late 07, they moved it to Wayne, Michigan. My point
being is that there are many shades of gray that people try to make black
and white to fit their opinion boxes.

Learned yesterday that the total CO footprint to get the raw materials for
the batteries and make batteries for the Toyota Prius far outweighs current
gasoline fed counterparts in the lifetime of the vehicle. The nickel comes
from Canada, and the batteries are made in China. Will GM's source of
batteries have the same CO impact for the VOLT?


Past few years, Nissan and Toyota have been making trucks and SUVs to
compete with the Big 3's. These recent Nissan/Toyota trucks in particular
are relatively heavy in weight and mass in relation to their carrying volume
capacity (purpose of a truck).


Tossing some cans of food, or a used child's coat, in a giving box is some
people's perception of supporting America. I'll leave it at that....
--
Dave

<clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:j5vqj41o7arcqsrm7p3q0s6mvi6im9i45s@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 12:10:20 -0500, "C. E. White"
> <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote:

> Try to find an early ford Escort on the road? I'm talking the first
> generation escort from North America.

You mean a 1981 Escort? I'll find you one of those if you can find me
a Starlet from the same year.

> How about a Chevy Monza, Vega, or Chevette, or a Buick SkyHawk?
> How about an "Ominous Omni" or "Horendous Horizon"
>
> HUndreds of thousands sold - allmost all now scrapped.

Vega: 71-77 - I found 12 on Autotrader
Monza: 75-80 - I found 5 on Autotrader
Chevette: 76-87 - I found only 1 on Autotrader
Corolla 71-87 - I found 2 on Autotrader (an 81 and an 85)
Crown 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Cressida 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Tercel 71-87 - I found 0 on Autotrader
Celica 71-87 - I found 2 on Autotrader (an 84 for parts and an 87
convertible)
Corona 71-87 - I found one on Autotrader

How many Corollas from the 70's do you see? How about Coronas, Crowns
or Cressidas? When was the last time you saw a first generation Celica
or Tercel? The first Toyota any of my friends owned was a 1st
generation Celica. It was a POS. It didn't last 11 years. Even in NC
it rusted away in less than 8 years. I can't imagine that cars as
crappy as that could last 30 years in Canada. In the late 70's I rear
ended a Corolla with my Jensen-Healey. The rear of the Corolla folded
up like a cheap suitcase. I drove the Jensen-Healey home with minor
hood damage.

In general, my biggest problems with Toyotas is not reliability, it is
the poor ergonomics of the cars, the crummy paint jobs, and high
maitenance costs. I am a large person and everytime I get into a
Toyota, I hit something with my arms, or knees, or head. If I check
the specs at Consumer Reports, the numbers invariably look good, yet
when I actually sit in one of the cars, there is always something in
the way. My SO's RAV4 is a perfect example. Something that large
should have plenty of front leg room, and the specs say it does, but
the truth is the front seat is tight as heck. My older son refuses to
ride in the front of my Sister's RAV4 it is so uncomfortable (he has
long legs). The console placement gives me fits. It restricts the foot
space to the right of the acceleration pedal, and makes for an
uncomfortable long trip. Plus the seat are pure crap. No support,
flat, etc. And don't get me started on the control layout. They should
use the cruise control thingy in human factors classes as the must
f&*ked up control device every inflicted on mankind. Whoever came up
with that design should be sent to the salt mines.

>>Just this morning I was behind a Generation 2 Camry and was amazed
>>by
>>how nice it looked. Most old Camrys look like s*&t. This one had a
>>temporary license tag and an out of state dealer logo on the trunk
>>lid. I suspect it had been repainted (it was two tone, with the
>>lower
>>half silver - never saw one with a paint job like that before). And
>>amazingly, it wasn't even smoking. It was a rare sight. I am more
>>used to old Toyotas like the ones my neighbors own - faded paint,
>>and
>>smoking on start-up.
>
> TwoTone silver and grey was a COMMON pain job on the early Camry up
> here in Canada. Several other 2 tone treatments as well.

This one was white on top and silver on the bottom. The paint job
looked like new.

>>
>>> The Big 3 are unwilling to take steps to restore confidence in
>>> their
>>> products. Look what VW and Hyundai did when their was the
>>> perception
>>> of quality issues with their products; they offered extra-long
>>> warranties on the power train.
>>
>>Geez, why would I want to have the cost of crap hidden by bogus
>>extended warranties. Even if they cover the failures, you still have
>>the inconveniences of having the POS hauled into the shop and losing
>>the use of the car for a day, or if it is a VW, weeks. No matter how
>>mediocre I think Toyotas are, I'd pick one over a VW any day, unless
>>the VW dealer delivers two for the price of one and guarantees one
>>will always be available during a 150k warranty period.
>>
>>Ed
> Diito for Mercedes and BMW (or Cadillac))

Dioclese wrote:

> The manufacturing end of the Big 3 is a bit more muddled than that. Making
> some cars in Mexico, outsourcing engines and transmissions from Germany,
> France, and England for instance. Oddly, Ford in the past assembled the
> Focus in Mexico. In late 07, they moved it to Wayne, Michigan. My point
> being is that there are many shades of gray that people try to make black
> and white to fit their opinion boxes.

It goes beyond that as well. The domestic content laws are so convoluted
that the number that's indicated bears little relation to the actual
domestic content. Also, the domestic content percentage doesn't include
labor.

The best thing is to ensure that the specific vehicle has a first digit
of the VIN code of 1 or 4, indicating that it was manufactured in the U.S..

There's another issue at work here against Ford, GM, and Chrysler, that
goes beyond reliability (which they claim to have solved). People buy
Toyotas and Hondas not just for mechanical reliability, but for human
factors (better ergonomics), better bodies and paint (resulting in less
rust), as well as for the reliability. It used to be that routine
maintenance cost more on non-big 3 vehicles, because unlike the big 3,
there weren't a lot of after-market replacement parts available from
Mexico and China. This is still true for the less popular "import"
brands (Subaru, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Kia, etc.) but it's no
longer an issue for Toyota, Honda, VW, and Nissan models. Still, as with
the big 3, be cautious about after-market parts since the quality is
often much worse than OEM parts.

Now when I rent a "big 3" vehicle, I'm still amazed at how much poorer
the ergonomics and design actually are. I guess I keep thinking that
they simply _must_ have improved after all these years. We rented a
Chrysler mini-van last summer (because the size car we reserved wasn't
available), OMG. Cruising down the mountain from Idaho into Wyoming I
wanted to put it into 2nd gear so I didn't have to ride the brakes, but
guess what? There's no more PRNDL or PRND21. It's now PRND. Talk about
decontenting!

You as an American taxpayer should consider the fact Japanese corporations
do not pay US federal Corporate income taxes on the profits earned in the
US. Chrysler, on the other hand, when it was a German Corporation DID pay
US federal Corporate income taxes on the profits made on the Chryslers sold
in the US. Tax laws between the US and Europe and the US and Japan are
not the same.

As to the Chevy Suburban, Honda, comparison the Suburban uses 85% American
parts and the Honda uses far less and I doubt the poster owned both


..com> wrote in message newsrnoj4d31qcb74t6u0ehli4gep3u79893l@4ax.com...
> "Marko" <trakp@army.mil> wrote:
>
>>"AJL" wrote:
>
>>> My Chevy Suburban was made in Mexico. My Honda was made in the USA.
>>> Both have parts made all over the world. What exactly is an American
>>> car?
>
>>Honda is japanese company registered in Japan...
>
> So when Chrysler was a German company registered in Germany it wasn't
> an American car?
>

What is your point? The same is true of you local Chevy dealership

"AJL" <nomail@fakeaddress.com> wrote in message
news:si8pj45pelvul9q8v6fl4jro176utjing4@4ax.com...
> "Marko" <trakp@army.mil> wrote:
>
>> I buy inside my own community because the money I spend
>>here goes back into my community to maintain itself. It is the
>>same thing I do when I buy my cars.
>
> My local Honda dealership appears to be staffed and run by Americans,
> most of whom I'm sure live in the community and spend their wages in
> the community. Well, all except for the illegals who send theirs to
> Mexico...

You just proved his point.



"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote in message
news:AemdnfOfduQ1DaPUnZ2dnUVZ_oninZ2d@ptd.net...
> What is your point? The same is true of you local Chevy dealership
>
> "AJL" <nomail@fakeaddress.com> wrote in message
> news:si8pj45pelvul9q8v6fl4jro176utjing4@4ax.com...
>> "Marko" <trakp@army.mil> wrote:
>>
>>> I buy inside my own community because the money I spend
>>>here goes back into my community to maintain itself. It is the
>>>same thing I do when I buy my cars.
>>
>> My local Honda dealership appears to be staffed and run by Americans,
>> most of whom I'm sure live in the community and spend their wages in
>> the community. Well, all except for the illegals who send theirs to
>> Mexico...
>
>

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:72w%k.9466$yr3.7440@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Dioclese wrote:


.. We rented a
> Chrysler mini-van last summer (because the size car we reserved wasn't
> available), OMG. Cruising down the mountain from Idaho into Wyoming I
> wanted to put it into 2nd gear so I didn't have to ride the brakes, but
> guess what? There's no more PRNDL or PRND21. It's now PRND. Talk about
> decontenting!

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:72w%k.9466$yr3.7440@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Dioclese wrote:
>
I guess we can assume you did not see the "L" or the little buton that
lowers the ratio?

> We rented a Chrysler mini-van last summer (because the size car we
> reserved wasn't available), OMG. Cruising down the mountain from Idaho
> into Wyoming I wanted to put it into 2nd gear so I didn't have to ride the
> brakes, but guess what? There's no more PRNDL or PRND21. It's now PRND.
> Talk about decontenting!