Honda Car Forum

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:57:53 +0000, Tegger wrote:

> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:Uf1Yk.40324$786.13736@fe11.news.easynews.com:
>
>
>
>> tilt-block type torque wrenches are notoriously difficult to keep in
>> calibration. split beam wrenches are accurate and robust and don't
>> have any of the tilt-block drawbacks because nothing is loaded when not
>> being used
>
>
>
> A tilt-block wrench also has no loaded parts when not in use, provided
> you dial it back down after use.

not as simple as that. one of the reasons there is a problem with
calibration issue with tilt-blocks is because virtually all manufacturers
use polymers in construction.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torqu...loded_view.jpg

the polymers in the actual tilt block unit are subject to "relaxation".
if you set the spring and measure torque at 10 seconds, 30 seconds, 60
seconds, 2 minutes, 5 minutes and 10 minutes, [etc] you'd get a
progressively lower torque trigger reading every time.

a load path that only loads momentarily and when in use, like you have
with split beam, doesn't have that problem.

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:25:21 -0800, johngdole wrote:

> Thanks for the detailed explanation. I see the slots now. Looks like
> I'll be putting some threadlockers in mine to help keep the lower nut in
> place, as it's not worth it for me to send it in for calibration. $25
> plus shipping both ways will cost the same as a new wrench with the
> annual sale, and I don't need a laboratory-grade certification.
>
> I wonder if the detents have something to do with the high rate of
> complaints about the plastic lock ring breaking (the Kobalt uses a metal
> ring without detents). I suppose if the lock ring isn't loosed up fully
> before adjusting, the force of turning will be transferred to the
> plastic ring. At least that's what I supposed will hold the setting when
> "locked".
>
> I was at Lowe's earlier, their Danaher-made torque wrenches say no
> hassle lifetime in big letters under the brand name "Kobalt", but the
> same 90day/1year in fine print as Sears. Oh well, until I get a $400
> Snap On I guess. Thanks again!
>
> Among the excellent articles, torque wrench calibration on motor.com:
> http://www.motor.com/article_pdf_dow...article_ID=516

looks like a [not so] thinly disguised advertising article to me.





>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 23, 12:41Â*pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>> johngd...@hotmail.com wrote in news:7d23d43d-aed8-42ad-824b-
>> 3be97cd2a...@q30g2000prq.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > Nice writeup on opening your old torque wrench.
>>
>> > Is it right that the upper nut in the handle was held in place by the
>> > plastic molding of the handle? So there is less chance of it rotating
>> > out of place than the lower nut?
>>
>> The upper and lower nuts together clamp together the handle and the
>> threaded shaft. This is how the wrench maintains its calibration. The
>> handle and the shaft MUST NOT ever come out of phase.
>>
>> The upper nut does indeed sit in a matching hexagonal recess in the
>> handle. Unless the handle should pull down sufficiently to allow the
>> hex recess to come fully away from the upper nut, the nut and handle
>> will stay in phase. However...if the lower nut comes loose, the upper
>> nut will be loose as well, and will rotate relative to the threaded
>> shaft (coming out of phase), throwing calibration off, which is exactly
>> what happened to me.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Also, didn't exactly see where the detent feels come from. I guess
>> > from the plastic lock ring area?
>>
>> If you look closely at the bottom of the wrench's body, you will see a
>> series of long, shallow slots milled into the body. These are oriented
>> axially, and spaced radially, around the body. (If they were cut all
>> the way through, they would make the bottom of the body resemble a
>> military rifle's flash suppressor.) There is a small nib, or
>> protrusion, on the inside top of the plastic handle that indexes into
>> the slots. When you turn the handle, its top flexes sufficient to allow
>> the protrusion to ride out of one slot and fall into the next, giving
>> the handle that "click" feeling as you wind the setting up or down.
>>
>> There are ten slots, of course, one for each pound as you rotate from 1
>> through 0 up each ten pounds of scale marking.
>>
>> I'm not sure how the locking ring functions; it never occurred to me to
>> examine that assembly.
>>
>>
>>
>> > The Lowe's Kobalt torque wrenches are also made by Danaher, but do
>> > carry a lifetime warranty.
>>
>> That's interesting. Sears' "lifetime" warranty essentially only covers
>> tools without moving parts, so the torque wrench is not covered.
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:xQ2Zk.95550$_h3.45695@fe01.news.easynews.com:

> On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:57:53 +0000, Tegger wrote:
>
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:Uf1Yk.40324$786.13736@fe11.news.easynews.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>> tilt-block type torque wrenches are notoriously difficult to keep in
>>> calibration. split beam wrenches are accurate and robust and don't
>>> have any of the tilt-block drawbacks because nothing is loaded when
>>> not being used
>>
>>
>>
>> A tilt-block wrench also has no loaded parts when not in use,
>> provided you dial it back down after use.
>
> not as simple as that. one of the reasons there is a problem with
> calibration issue with tilt-blocks is because virtually all
> manufacturers use polymers in construction.
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torqu...loded_view.jpg
>
> the polymers in the actual tilt block unit are subject to
> "relaxation". if you set the spring and measure torque at 10 seconds,
> 30 seconds, 60 seconds, 2 minutes, 5 minutes and 10 minutes, [etc]
> you'd get a progressively lower torque trigger reading every time.



Hm. I wonder by what amount?



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in news:Xns9B68493394280tegger@
208.90.168.18:

> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:xQ2Zk.95550$_h3.45695@fe01.news.easynews.com:

>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torqu...loded_view.jpg
>>
>> the polymers in the actual tilt block unit are subject to
>> "relaxation". if you set the spring and measure torque at 10 seconds,
>> 30 seconds, 60 seconds, 2 minutes, 5 minutes and 10 minutes, [etc]
>> you'd get a progressively lower torque trigger reading every time.
>
>
>
> Hm. I wonder by what amount?
>
>
>



I just had a close look at the picture you referenced, plus my original
photos.

I'm pretty certain the item I call the "anti-windup assembly" only had a
skin of polymer around the outside as a cage, serving only to hold the ball
bearings in place. The assembly itself was steel all the way through to the
bottom where the spring bore against it.

This wrench has no polymer load-bearing parts.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 12:35:38 +0000, Tegger wrote:

> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in news:Xns9B68493394280tegger@
> 208.90.168.18:
>
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:xQ2Zk.95550$_h3.45695@fe01.news.easynews.com:
>
>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torqu...loded_view.jpg
>>>
>>> the polymers in the actual tilt block unit are subject to
>>> "relaxation". if you set the spring and measure torque at 10 seconds,
>>> 30 seconds, 60 seconds, 2 minutes, 5 minutes and 10 minutes, [etc]
>>> you'd get a progressively lower torque trigger reading every time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hm. I wonder by what amount?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> I just had a close look at the picture you referenced, plus my original
> photos.
>
> I'm pretty certain the item I call the "anti-windup assembly" only had a
> skin of polymer around the outside as a cage, serving only to hold the
> ball bearings in place. The assembly itself was steel all the way
> through to the bottom where the spring bore against it.
>
> This wrench has no polymer load-bearing parts.


if that's the case, it's ok to leave it "loaded" when not being used. if
there's any polymer, you have to unload it.

Here is another picture of the tilt (or pivot) block in a cut-away
view:

http://www.motor.com/article_pdf_dow...article_ID=599

The torque wrench should be kept in the lower 25% of the range when
not in use (according to Danaher), but the Motor.com article suggests
no less than the minimum on the torque wrench in case the tilt block
dislodges!

I'm sure with all trade publications (or TV/movies these days) there
will be plenty of unashamed advertisements. Just read past them I
guess. However, Tegger could have recalibrated his old torque wrench
for $25 + shipping with Angle Repair, if he missed last Friday's 50%
off Craftsman torque wrenches!




On Dec 1, 8:29*pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> not as simple as that. *one of the reasons there is a problem with
> calibration issue with tilt-blocks is because virtually all manufacturers
> use polymers in construction.
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torqu...loded_view.jpg
>
> the polymers in the actual tilt block unit are subject to "relaxation". *
> if you set the spring and measure torque at 10 seconds, 30 seconds, 60
> seconds, 2 minutes, 5 minutes and 10 minutes, [etc] you'd get a
> progressively lower torque trigger reading every time. *
>
> a load path that only loads momentarily and when in use, like you have
> with split beam, doesn't have that problem.

Is it correct that both ends of the "anti-windup" mechanism actually
rotate with respect to each other? Because it looks like the ball
bearings help reduce friction so all tension from the spring transfer
to the tilt block/ratchet head.

If so that would be the "interface" mentioned in US Patent 5,503,042.
"freely rotatable cylindrical roller" it says. Not too flashy.

Or, similarly, as the following web site calls it "interface mechanism
(toggle, cam or low-friction roller)"
http://www.buyerzone.com/constructio...ue-wrench.html





On Dec 2, 4:35*am, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:

> I'm pretty certain the item I call the "anti-windup assembly" only had a
> skin of polymer around the outside as a cage, serving only to hold the ball
> bearings in place. The assembly itself was steel all the way through to the
> bottom where the spring bore against it.
>
> This wrench has no polymer load-bearing parts.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Another one:

US patent 7451674, http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7451674.html

calls it "spring and pawl". So the "bar" of the ratchet head rests on
the "pawl". Which I guess is the tilt block + roller interface. Then
comes the spring. (Ratchet bar -> Pawl -> Spring.)

Now Harbor Freight ads say: heavy duty cam and pawl mechanism. I guess
the ratchet bar is considered the cam then that rests on the pawl
mentioned in patent 7,451,674??


Excerpt from US Patent 7,451,674:
"The most popular type of this wrench is called a micrometer torque
wrench and has a hollow arm which includes a spring and pawl mechanism
for setting the torque. Within the hollow arm, the pawl is forced
against one end of a bar that is connected to a drive head, the bar
and a drive head are pinned to the hollow arm and rotate as torque is
applied. The pawl is released when the force applied by the bar
increases beyond a set value established by the operator. When
released, the bar hits the inside of the arm, producing a sound and a
distinct feel by a user. The torque value or release point is changed
by rotating the handle, which moves on threads for setting.
Additionally, values are permanently stamped or imprinted on a scale
that is located on an outer surface of the hollow arm. Micrometer
wrenches can overtorque when the operator continues to apply pressure
after release, due to the momentum created by the releasing mechanism.
This overtorque may occur without the user even realizing it. "





On Dec 2, 4:35*am, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:

> I just had a close look at the picture you referenced, plus my original
> photos.
>
> I'm pretty certain the item I call the "anti-windup assembly" only had a
> skin of polymer around the outside as a cage, serving only to hold the ball
> bearings in place. The assembly itself was steel all the way through to the
> bottom where the spring bore against it.
>
> This wrench has no polymer load-bearing parts.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

I didn't think of it earlier, nor did I expect Sears Parts Direct to
sell every single part in their Danaher-made torque wrench. Here it is
Tegger, the description of every part in that torque wrench:

Turns out the "pawl" is the tilt block, the "anti-windup" assembly
Tegger mentioned is the cam assembly.

The Sears version of the Danaher torque wrench seems to have a weak
handle lock ring that breaks often. The SK and Lowe's version use a
metal lock ring. If the plastic ring breaks and people still want a
Craftsman, it's cheaper to buy a new wrench during 50% year-end-sale
than to buy a new handle and send it in for calibration ($25 + round
trip shipping). Who knows, people may even be able to substitute a SK
or Lowe's handle.


Sears Danaher-made torque wrench parts drawing:
http://c.searspartsdirect.com/lis_pn...1046-00001.png


The torque wrench has:
----------------------------------
Ratchet assembly
Dust Seal
Arm pin/retaining ring

Barrel
Pawl (tilt block)
Cam assembly (cam, cam spring, cage, balls)
R. nut pin (??)
Torque spring
Spring cup
Positive engagement spring
Thrust washer

Adjusting screw assembly (ball, adj screw, round nut, handle nut)
Grip assembly
Handle nut
End cap

On Dec 3, 12:32*am, johngd...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I didn't think of it earlier, nor did I expect Sears Parts Direct to
> sell every single part in their Danaher-made torque wrench. Here it is
> Tegger, the description of every part in that torque wrench:
>
> Turns out the "pawl" is the tilt block, the "anti-windup" assembly
> Tegger mentioned is the cam assembly.
>
> The Sears version of the Danaher torque wrench seems to have a weak
> handle lock ring that breaks often. The SK and Lowe's version use a
> metal lock ring. If the plastic ring breaks and people still want a
> Craftsman, it's cheaper to buy a new wrench during 50% year-end-sale
> than to buy a new handle and send it in for calibration ($25 + round
> trip shipping). Who knows, people may even be able to substitute a SK
> or Lowe's handle.
>
> Sears Danaher-made torque wrench parts drawing:http://c.searspartsdirect.com/lis_pn...1046-00001.png
>
> The torque wrench has:
> ----------------------------------
> Ratchet assembly
> Dust Seal
> Arm pin/retaining ring
>
> Barrel
> Pawl (tilt block)
> Cam assembly (cam, cam spring, cage, balls)
> R. nut pin (??)
> Torque spring
> Spring cup
> Positive engagement spring
> Thrust washer
>
> Adjusting screw assembly (ball, adj screw, round nut, handle nut)
> Grip assembly
> Handle nut
> End cap

yep, one more victim of the busted plastic sears lock ring here.
otherwise, seems to be a decent wrench. i busted the ratchet out of a
cheaper wrench previously,

still works OK despite the busted lock ring, you just have to be
careful not to twist the handle. any day now i've been planinng to
wrap the lock ring with a screw type hose clamp, that oughta hold it.