Honda Car Forum

"dan" <dan@nospam.net> wrote
> Tegger wrote:
>> But I must say, it is passing strange that neither tranny
>> bolt has stripped in seventeen years (that's 17 R&R's),
>> and neither is leaking after that same length of time.
>>
>>
> You're just good. Like me. We just know what feels
> right.

Both those bolts use crush washers. These washers will lose
their springiness, requiring excessive torque for a good
seal until the threads strip.

Yada yada I am sure you know this.

Here are some photos for Acura RSX. Civic should be similar.

http://www.sexyracing.com/tilt/howto...annyfluid.html


<brian.philbin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7a5ec66d-de51-43aa-98e1-25274a586f2c@e38g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 14, 9:28 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What year and model?

Sorry, thought I'd sent that - it's a 2002 Civic EX Coupe.

Brian

dan <dan@nospam.net> wrote in news:JBoTk.46672$G23.42201
@newsreading01.news.tds.net:

> Brian,
>
> When you figure out how to do this simple "fluid" change,



It's simple and yet complex. Black and yet white. Up and yet down. I should
stop now.



> use Honda MTL
> fluid. It is the best stuff for our cars.


It's the best stuff for sure, but Honda calls it "MTF". The acronym is
analogous to the "ATF" intended for automatic transmissions.

And in case anybody's wondering, Honda has recently given Acura its very
own brand. Bottles sold at Acura dealers are now labeled "Acura MTF"
instead of the previous "Honda MTF". It's the very same potion though.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Elle" <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in news:%cpTk.7110$Oq2.129
@newsfe08.iad:

> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote
>> Maybe /you/ can do all this with the car on the ground,
>> but I've found
>> it just about impossible. Maybe it's easier on the Civic.
>
> Maybe.
>
> I admit most of the time I put the car on ramps for a manual
> tranny oil change. I guess it was just once or twice I did
> it without lifting it in any way. It was not too awful.
>
>>> The smaller bolt's washer is identical to the oil pan
>>> washer.
>>
>>
>>
>> I did /not/ know that. Neither does my parts guy,
>> apparently. And he's
>> been with this dealership since 1986.
>
> bkhondaparts.com gives part number 94109-14000 for both the
> oil pan washer and the drain plug washer (14 mm for both).




OK... This may help. He can search by part number as well as by
application.

But what about the fill plug washer?




>
>> But I must say, it is passing strange that neither tranny
>> bolt has
>> stripped in seventeen years (that's 17 R&R's), and neither
>> is leaking
>> after that same length of time.
>
> Maybe 'cause tranny oil is not changed as often as engine
> oil?
>


Possibly.

But it may be also because the oil pan has only three or four threads,
while the tranny bolts have about eight or more. Plus the oil pan's threads
are made from expanded sheet steel with nothing but air (or oil) outside
the threads, whereas the tranny's threads are cut from, and are radially
surrounded by, solid aluminum.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:04:34 -0700, Elle wrote:

> "dan" <dan@nospam.net> wrote
>> Tegger wrote:
>>> But I must say, it is passing strange that neither tranny bolt has
>>> stripped in seventeen years (that's 17 R&R's), and neither is leaking
>>> after that same length of time.
>>>
>>>
>> You're just good. Like me. We just know what feels right.
>
> Both those bolts use crush washers. These washers will lose their
> springiness, requiring excessive torque for a good seal until the
> threads strip.
>
> Yada yada I am sure you know this.

yes, they're crush washers, but no, they're not springy, they're plastic
[in the materials deformation sense, not polymers sense]. their
plasticity is so that they fill the small intersticies in the material
surface on both the transmission and plug side, and thus seal.

/should/ you reuse them? no - once deformed, they're not soft enough to
reliably do their job. /can/ you reuse them? well, i tend to. more than
a couple of times and they may leak though.

yes, re-use leads to over-tightening temptation, but this should be
avoided at all costs. the transmission casting may /look/ like a huge
hunk of strong aluminum, but it's not that hard to strip the thread, and
oh, what a pita to fix. trust me on that.

On Nov 14, 8:04*pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "dan" <d...@nospam.net> wrote
>
> > Tegger wrote:
> >> But I must say, it is passing strange that neither tranny
> >> bolt has stripped in seventeen years (that's 17 R&R's),
> >> and neither is leaking after that same length of time.
>
> > You're just good. *Like me. *We just know what feels
> > right.
>
> Both those bolts use crush washers. These washers will lose
> their springiness, requiring excessive torque for a good
> seal until the threads strip.
>
> Yada yada I am sure you know this.

the smaller washer is, indeed, the same old oil pan drain washer. the
bigger washer is 20mm. i would imagine that the seal on the drain bolt
is quite a bit more critical than that on the filler bolt, (since the
oil only comes up to the level of the filler bolt threads when it's
slopping around)

BTW, original poster: make sure to get the filler bolt off before
taking the drain bolt out. you do NOT want to end up with the drain
bolt open, the transmission drained, and the filler bolt stuck shut.

On Nov 14, 8:09*pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote in news:JBoTk.46672$G23.42201
> @newsreading01.news.tds.net:
>
> > Brian,
>
> > When you figure out how to do this simple "fluid" change,
>
> It's simple and yet complex. Black and yet white. Up and yet down. I should
> stop now.
>
> > use Honda MTL
> > fluid. *It is the best stuff for our cars.
>
> It's the best stuff for sure, but Honda calls it "MTF". The acronym is
> analogous to the "ATF" intended for automatic transmissions.
>
> And in case anybody's wondering, Honda has recently given Acura its very
> own brand. Bottles sold at Acura dealers are now labeled "Acura MTF"
> instead of the previous "Honda MTF". It's the very same potion though.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

early 90s hondas used to spec plain old engine oil; i went through one
trans in about 50k miles and followed that up with a suspicious number
of bad ones from junkyards (bad growly bearings in each case, not
chewed up synchros or anything). somebody here pointed out that honda
was now speccing their MTF instead, and it wasn't because the trans
were different nowadays and required something different, it was
because the engine oil wasn't doing the job well. i suspect they were
desperately dodging a "secret warranty" type thing. unless there
actually was one i never found out about.

It had nothing to do with Honda. Industry-wide, Engine oil
chemistry changed so that catalytic converters would last
longer. But the change meant engine oil was no longer as
good for "extreme pressure" applications like trannies. For
citations, see
http://honda.lioness.googlepages.com/manualtrannyfluid

OTOH, I used regular engine oil in my 91 Civic's manual
tranny until 2006, and my Civic at 206k miles stills runs
great.


"z" <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote
early 90s hondas used to spec plain old engine oil; i went
through one
trans in about 50k miles and followed that up with a
suspicious number
of bad ones from junkyards (bad growly bearings in each
case, not
chewed up synchros or anything). somebody here pointed out
that honda
was now speccing their MTF instead, and it wasn't because
the trans
were different nowadays and required something different, it
was
because the engine oil wasn't doing the job well. i suspect
they were
desperately dodging a "secret warranty" type thing. unless
there
actually was one i never found out about.

"Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote
> But what about the fill plug washer?

Part no. 94109-20000 (20 mm) for my 91 Civic.

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote
Elle wrote
>> Both those bolts use crush washers. These washers will
>> lose their
>> springiness, requiring excessive torque for a good seal
>> until the
>> threads strip.
>>
>> Yada yada I am sure you know this.
>
> yes, they're crush washers, but no, they're not springy,
> they're plastic
> [in the materials deformation sense, not polymers sense].
> their
> plasticity is so that they fill the small intersticies in
> the material
> surface on both the transmission and plug side, and thus
> seal.

They may very well be more plastic (and so possessing a
greater tendency towards permanent deformation) as opposed
to springy, but something springy would also fill
interstices. Bottom line is that seals (gaskets, washers,
etc.) of all kinds are often re-used, and with no subsequent
leaks, despite being not as effective. The operator is
taking a risk.