Honda Car Forum

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote

> Your questions are perfectly well-communicated. Furthermore,
> they are asked so often this ought to be an FAQ.
>
> I have read a fair amount on Honda's maintenance minder over
> the last several years. I have also read reports here on
> when it has signaled that the oil is due for a change. In my
> opinion, one can rely on it (of course; the engineers are
> not dummies) instead of many old customs such as change the
> oil every 5000 miles/6 months (or whatever one's preferred
> frequency is based on driving conditions).
>
> Of course few read the owner's manual cover to cover. Issues
> certainly arise that are not covered in the owner's manual
> and so need to be addressed either by Honda subsequently;
> word of mouth; etc.
>
> How the Maintenance Minder works is not covered in the
> manual. The first time I heard about this latest
> bell-whistle-gizmo, I was not trusting until I had at least
> a basic description of how the MM computer yada worked.
>
> As for the flack from a few parties here: It represents the
> usual cowardice to troubleshoot the whole problem. The whole
> problem of course includes not only the car's ailment but
> also communicating effectively how to fix the car's ailment.
> How much brains does it take to communicate simple, literal
> principles? I actually think the usual shadetree mechanic or
> highly trained technician has more than enough brains to do
> so. Many "just" need to have it pointed out to them that the
> problem is two-fold and be asked to think in advance: What's
> going to get us to the practical solution quickest and with
> the greatest future return on my time's investment?
>
> Some are just troll-ish out of sport. Usenet and all.

Amen.

Well said...excellently put.

> Post-back if you want some links on how the Maintenance
> Minder works.

I sure would enjoy reading more about it, please.

Peace,
Polfus

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote

> The "minder" is the result of the engine computer, which is keeping very
> close track of EXACTLY how you drive the car and what wear you put on it.
>
> The schedule is inside the computer, and the computer tells you when
> your driving habits warrant a given service.

> Why the resistance to following the schedule that Honda's engineers have
> spelled out? The fact that they've spelled it out only in the computer,
> which is able to take into account every little aspect of how you drive
> the car and therefore know exactly how much wear their components and
> lubricants have received?
>
>
> The old "do it every X months or Y thousand miles" was there as a best
> guesstimate, because the technology wasn't built into the car to record
> every cold start, every RPM load, and so on. But now that it is there,
> we don't go by simple time or miles--we go by much more precise
> measurements.
>
> And those measurements are understood by the engineers who built the
> car, and the results of the measurements are well understood by the
> engineers who built the car.

Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the Maintenance
Minder?

Think about it.

If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off.

That means, therefore, that all it is is a simple computer that remembers
the milage when it was reset.

That's it.

And the manual says quite clearly, "If the message "Service" does not appear
more than 12 months after the display is reset, change the engine oil every
year."

What if I then drive 35,000 miles in one year?

What then, smart-ass...don't change the oil because the Maintenance Minder
computer says no need?

Polfus

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote

> your contributions are inane and childish. they lack any honda-related
> merit. and you get fixated on schoolyard snot-smearing. how old are you?

Nice Honda-related content.

"Avalon" <Avalon1178@gmail.com> wrote
> that would be great if you don't mind sending
> some links about this Maintenance Minder.

I think the most detailed and most reputable description of
the MM on the net is at
http://www.honda.ca/HondaCA2006/YourHonda/HondaService . On
the left highlight "Honda Service," click on "Maintenance
Calculator," choose year and model, then click on "Complete
Maintenance Schedule." The following appears there:

"The maintenance requirements for your [Honda vehicle] are
determined by an internal algorithm, which considers the
engine starting temperature, driving distance and engine
RPM. The onboard computer also judges your driving
conditions and habits, and then calculates the remaining
engine oil life, displaying it as a percentage."

More links follow.

> Do you know if this is unique to the new Honda
> models only or do most cars have this technology now?

From general reading, I doubt it is a majority of new
vehicles that have this right now. I do see internet
discussions on the Chevy Ventura supporting what Seth
posted. This Chevy's MM seems similar to the newer Hondas'.
I googled {"maintenance minder" Chevy} to find this. Pardon
if I am stating the obvious, but often the internet is worth
googling first. Admittedly, though, sometimes information is
so arcane that a much more intensive search is needed. That
description above is not all over the internet, for one. I
do not remember how I found it a few years ago, but it is
not in the top ten hits using a few keywords, for example.

A lot of folks have raised concerns about the MM like those
posted in this thread. The ones that come up a lot on the
net, and the best responses I see to them, follow.

1.
Does the MM account for severe duty (especially with regard
to oil life)?
For this, many anecdotal reports on the web reference a
Honda Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) from 2005 on this. It
is titled "Taking the Mystery Out of the Maintenance Minder
System," TSB #09012005, NHTSA #10018482. It is reproduced at
forums like:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...sage_id=583156. It
says, "The system counts down oil life based on engine
operating conditions (both normal and severe). If the engine
runs at higher temperatures and rpm, or at low temperatures
during short trips, the oil life will deplete faster than an
engine running under more normal conditions." The
description at the Canada site at the top seems to back this
up. Also, here is a post where someone reports that he
tested the oil quality and compared it to the MM's
recommendations for changing the oil: "[The Maintenance
Minder] is pretty accurate as I have done used oil analysis
and the life expectancy shown on the reports coincides with
what our oil life monitor tells us." See
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/f...ad.php?t=15095


2.
Does the MM take driving in dusty conditions into account?
What about driving for a long time while not meeting the
MM's criteria for all the operating conditions listed at the
Canada site above?
The MM does not take account of dusty air filters or any
other system vulnerable to dust. Nor does it factor in the
actual time in days, months, or years that, say, oil or
whatever fluid is in the car. This is covered in the owner's
manual in the MM sections. The owner must monitor time (in
days, months, or years) on his/her own. As Polfus noted, the
rule is 'Change the oil per the MM or once a year, whichever
comes first,' is the actual rule. Engine oil evidently is
not all that vulnerable to dust from dusty roads. I do buy
this at present. Some common sense is still appropriate.
E.g. if someone adds a cup of dirt via the engine oil fill
hole, then I recommend an oil change.

3.
Does the MM distinguish between the use of synthetic oil and
non-synth. oil?
No, but then Honda has always specified the same intervals
regardless of which type of oil one uses.

4.
How do I know the MM was reset after a dealer (or anyone)
does an oil change?
If the MM does not read "Oil Life 100%" right after you pull
out of the shop, then the shop failed to reset it. The
Owner's Manual has instructions for resetting in its
maintenance minder section. Should take just a few minutes
to get through the instructions and reset the MM. I gather
this resetting of the MM is possible for any system the MM
monitors.

5.
A good "official Honda" site that gives what the codes mean
and also exactly what systems the MM minds:
http://www.imakenews.com/londonhonda....cfm?x=b11,0,w
Mostly this is just an excerpt from an owner's manual.


> My dealer tells me with my old car that
> to keep it in good condition, to always do
> scheduled maintenance of every 10,000 miles
> (minor service, in addition to oil change
> at every 5000...then I think major service
> every 30,000). With the new maintenance
> minder, do you think this concept still applies?

This concept does not apply to either older cars without an
MM or new ones with an MM. As others have noted, dealers are
not a part of Honda corporation. Dealer service centers are
in the business of selling services and new parts, often
whether your car needs them or not.

For maintenance, follow the owner's manual and MM. If any
shop tells you to do something otherwise, you can post here
or at other Honda fora and get opinions. Generally the best
decision will come out of such discussions, based on much
real life experience and dissection by the ultimate
marketplace of ideas, the net.

"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote
> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to
> reset the Maintenance Minder?

> If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule
> will be off.

Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve
the owner of responsibility when it comes to maintenance.

> And the manual says quite clearly, "If the message
> "Service" does not appear more than 12 months after the
> display is reset, change the engine oil every year."
>
> What if I then drive 35,000 miles in one year?
>
> What then, smart-ass...don't change the oil because the
> Maintenance Minder computer says no need?

The MM computer does take into account distance driven.

Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts.
The owner has to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms.

My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by
reducing unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes.
See post to Avalon for some elaboration.

These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora.
Like all new technology, it's going to take a while for the
MM to be accepted. Or it may be rejected. I'd say the jury's
out. If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least
oil changes, with the caveat that I'd like more input on why
there is no distinction made between synthetic and
non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance
schedules and the new MM.

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote

> "Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote
>> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the
>> Maintenance Minder?
>
>> If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off.

> Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of
> responsibility when it comes to maintenance.

That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the Maintenance
Minder's actual schedule are valid.

You know...all I need would be for Honda to just simply gimme a general
recommendation or two regarding the engine oil.

It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every 5,000
miles or 7,000 miles or whatever.

Because for Honda to dismiss the thing's worth with "...change the engine
oil every year" must still be a recommendation that they are comfortable
with.

Because they are saying that if you don't use the MM, then change the oil
every year.

That amazes me to no end...what the hell is the point of being so critical
with the MM when Honda basically says their car will bne fine if you just
change the oil once a year.

Do you follow what I'm saying?

> The MM computer does take into account distance driven.

I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; i.e.
"..when did I last get reset?"

> Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner has
> to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms.

No doubt...and its good to have on there regardless.

> My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by reducing
> unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes. See post to Avalon for
> some elaboration.

Agreed.

I also believe its because a whole mess of folks can't remember when they
last changed their oil, so its a reminder.

Just that simple, IMHO.

> These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora. Like all new
> technology, it's going to take a while for the MM to be accepted. Or it
> may be rejected. I'd say the jury's out.

Well said. I believe it will remain in one form or another.

I also believe the main thing is that folks like me and the Avalon fella is
that we cannot accept a car company telling us "just shut the hell up and do
what the computer says".

If the computer fails, like H.A.L., then we need back up and info on how to
fix or maintain the dang thing.

So all Honda has to do is explain it more with backup info for their general
plan for oil changes and filter changes in case Ye Olde MM fails...if they
did that, I don't think we'd be having this conversation right now.

>If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least oil changes, with
>the caveat that I'd like more input on why there is no distinction made
>between synthetic and non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance
>schedules and the new MM.

Well..you want my guess? Here goes in case you said yes:

I think its because-

1) They don't use an actual sensor to "taste" the oil..there's no chemical
analysis machine in the car anywhere. So they have no way of knowing exactly
what the state of the oil and filter actually are. And the MM sure as heck
doesn't do anything other than remember last reset and supposedly factors
like starts and acceleration, etc...which I really have a hard time
believing is that effective if at all.

2) So, since they don't use any such sensor to test the oil, there needs to
be no distinction between the two types of oils.

3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that point that we should
follow the new recommendations of the synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e. Mobil
1's guidelines.

4) Since we gotta use the new guidelines, there's no need for anything other
than Honda's recommendation with regular oil.

5) Possibly there is some extreme conspiracy whereas there's so much money
to be made on oil, that no one wants us to know that synthetic oil is
better. It seems that every one that offers a synthetic oil also offers a
regular. Why should a company cut its main profit off by spilling the beans
completely?

6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and refer back to #5.


Peace,
Polfus

In article <47a7921f$0$22660$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote:

> > Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of
> > responsibility when it comes to maintenance.
>
> That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the Maintenance
> Minder's actual schedule are valid.

But since those questions are answered explicitly in the owner's manual,
asking them here is not valid.

In article <47a7921f$0$22660$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote:

> > The MM computer does take into account distance driven.
>
> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain; i.e.
> "..when did I last get reset?"

You have no idea what weighting any indicator is given. The computer
takes into account miles driven cold, cold starts, RPM above a certain
point, etc.

You "believe". Ain't that nice.

"Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote in message
news:47a7921f$0$22660$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
>> "Polfus" <nostringscouldsecureyou@thestation> wrote
>>> Then why can all that be screwed up if one forgets to reset the
>>> Maintenance Minder?
>>
>>> If you rest it early, then Honda admits that the schedule will be off.
>
>> Correct. The Maintenance Minder does not completely absolve the owner of
>> responsibility when it comes to maintenance.
>
> That's it exactly..which is why I feel that questions about the
> Maintenance Minder's actual schedule are valid.
>
> You know...all I need would be for Honda to just simply gimme a general
> recommendation or two regarding the engine oil.
>
> It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every
> 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever.

But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it.

> Because for Honda to dismiss the thing's worth with "...change the engine
> oil every year" must still be a recommendation that they are comfortable
> with.

Cause oil does break down from just sitting there.

> Because they are saying that if you don't use the MM, then change the oil
> every year.

No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM, then
change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age.

> That amazes me to no end...what the hell is the point of being so critical
> with the MM when Honda basically says their car will bne fine if you just
> change the oil once a year.

No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing
sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style of
driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in.

> Do you follow what I'm saying?

Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed.

>> The MM computer does take into account distance driven.
>
> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain;
> i.e. "..when did I last get reset?"

More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have they
affected the oil since I was last reset.

>> Can the computer fail? Yes, but so can a lot of other parts. The owner
>> has to stay alert to trouble codes and symptoms.
>
> No doubt...and its good to have on there regardless.
>
>> My sense is the MM may very well save the owner money by reducing
>> unnecessary oil and other part and fluid changes. See post to Avalon for
>> some elaboration.
>
> Agreed.
>
> I also believe its because a whole mess of folks can't remember when they
> last changed their oil, so its a reminder.
>
> Just that simple, IMHO.
>
>> These all are often-raised concerns at other internet fora. Like all new
>> technology, it's going to take a while for the MM to be accepted. Or it
>> may be rejected. I'd say the jury's out.
>
> Well said. I believe it will remain in one form or another.
>
> I also believe the main thing is that folks like me and the Avalon fella
> is that we cannot accept a car company telling us "just shut the hell up
> and do what the computer says".

Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is
neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change
the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%.

> If the computer fails, like H.A.L., then we need back up and info on how
> to fix or maintain the dang thing.
>
> So all Honda has to do is explain it more with backup info for their
> general plan for oil changes and filter changes in case Ye Olde MM
> fails...if they did that, I don't think we'd be having this conversation
> right now.
>
>>If forced to bet, I'd bet the MM is useful for at least oil changes, with
>>the caveat that I'd like more input on why there is no distinction made
>>between synthetic and non-synthetic oil, per both Honda's old maintenance
>>schedules and the new MM.
>
> Well..you want my guess? Here goes in case you said yes:
>
> I think its because-
>
> 1) They don't use an actual sensor to "taste" the oil..there's no chemical
> analysis machine in the car anywhere. So they have no way of knowing
> exactly what the state of the oil and filter actually are. And the MM sure
> as heck doesn't do anything other than remember last reset and supposedly
> factors like starts and acceleration, etc...which I really have a hard
> time believing is that effective if at all.
>
> 2) So, since they don't use any such sensor to test the oil, there needs
> to be no distinction between the two types of oils.
>
> 3) When you use a synthetic oil, Honda states at that point that we should
> follow the new recommendations of the synthetic oil manufacturer; i.e.
> Mobil 1's guidelines.
>
> 4) Since we gotta use the new guidelines, there's no need for anything
> other than Honda's recommendation with regular oil.
>
> 5) Possibly there is some extreme conspiracy whereas there's so much money
> to be made on oil, that no one wants us to know that synthetic oil is
> better. It seems that every one that offers a synthetic oil also offers a
> regular. Why should a company cut its main profit off by spilling the
> beans completely?
>
> 6) Never underestimates the power of greed and money, and refer back to
> #5.
>
>
> Peace,
> Polfus

"Seth" <seth_lermanNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote

>> It is not difficult for a "Honda recommends changing engine oil every
>> 5,000 miles or 7,000 miles or whatever.
>
> But they no longer believe that to be true is why they don't say it.

Well help me then..what is their current thinking?

> No, they are saying if you haven't done enough driving to trip the MM,
> then change the oil cause it's starting to break down due to age.

??

They are saying that if it doesn't go off its not 'cause of failure to the
system, but because the car hasn't been driven enough to make it
activate..i.e. enough miles driven to warrant oil change?

If thats what you're saying, then I understand...thank you.

If thats not what you'r saying, then we'll keep trying.

And does Mobil 1 synthetic break down "just sitting there"? I didn't believe
it did.

> No, cause if you drive say 15,000 miles a year, the oil needs changing
> sooner than yearly. How much sooner will depend on length of trip, style
> of driving, etc... and that's where the MM kicks in.

So you're saying that Honda is saying that "..don't worry..the MM *WILL*
work and kick in, but if you don't see the might go off, then you must not
be driving a lot so just change once a year".

Thats it?

> Yes, but I don't agree and I think that your logic above is flawed.

Apparently...I believe I see what you mean about this, and I may have been
looking at it wrong about the once a year thing, if you're saying what I
think you're saying.

>> I believe that's most likely the main thought in its electronic brain;
>> i.e. "..when did I last get reset?"

> More like, what kind of coinditions have I been faced with and how have
> they affected the oil since I was last reset.

Okay....whats your take on the accuracy of the MM in general?

> Your welcome to change the oil sooner, just Honda doesn't beleive it is
> neccessary. The MM can be reset before it's time as well. If you change
> the oil when it is at say 40%, reset it backl to 100%.

Yeah...I did read my manual

Peace,
Polfus