Honda Car Forum

I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
won't catch.

When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and the
fuel pump doesn't run. I can sit there for up to five minutes with
the key ON and eventually it runs and I can go mobiling on down the
highway. It has all of the symptoms of the well-documented fscked up
main relay problem...

I've worked through the diagnostics in the service manual: The main
relay testing, the voltage checks at the relay connector, and the
relay internal PCB repair (and then replaced the relay since it didn't
seem it could be anything else even though the original main relay
checked out). I cleaned up the relay connectors with no residue
contact cleaner, and the fuel pump ground, and they all look great.
The basic problem of course is no 12v measured at the fuel pump
connector by the tank when the car is in this no-start state.

Finally it does seem temperature dependent but more so it won't happen
with the car is warm, or ambient is very cold (<60F), but only when
it's just right - like 75)

Where I seem to be left with now acccording to the svc manual is stuff
around the ECM. I don't have a break out connector for the ecm and
I'm nervous about probing around that area, *if* I could even get to
it. I have a n00b problem though in reaching the ECM: How on earth
does one get the kick panel covering the ECM off? Pry it off with a
flat head screwdriver after after removing the weatherstripping?


Also if you've had this probem how did you resolve it? Funky crap on
the ECM connector? Bad ground?

Any suggestions please?

hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in news:1197906337.39292
@news.queue.to:

> I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
> condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
> won't catch.
>
> When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and the
> fuel pump doesn't run.



The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned to
"II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...

Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to body ground
strap. How are they?

<rest of original text snipped>



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:10:57 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
: hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in news:1197906337.39292
: @news.queue.to:
:
: > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
: > condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
: > won't catch.
: >
: > When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and the
: > fuel pump doesn't run.
:
:
:
: The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned to
: "II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...

Not all the time, it goes out when the relay finally clicks the second
time and the fuel pump starts right up at that point. When the
problem is expressing itself it'll stay on for as long as I sit there
and wait for it, sometimes 3-4 minutes after turning the key to on,
and extinguishes two seconds after the pump comes on (I think II is
the on position, 'll tkae a look at the key when I check the grounds)

:
: Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to body ground
: strap. How are they?

Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that
carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
strap (I'm stupid)? I had the timing belt and the radiator
hoses changed a few months ago, are either of those attachments the
sort that'd have beend disconnected for those services?

hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
news:1197931832.3508@news.queue.to:

> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:10:57 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m>
> wrote:
> : hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in news:1197906337.39292
> : @news.queue.to:
> :
> : > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
> : > condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
> : > won't catch.
> : >
> : > When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and
> : > the fuel pump doesn't run.
> :
> :
> :
> : The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned
> : to "II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...
>
> Not all the time, it goes out when the relay finally clicks the second
> time and the fuel pump starts right up at that point. When the
> problem is expressing itself it'll stay on for as long as I sit there
> and wait for it, sometimes 3-4 minutes after turning the key to on,
> and extinguishes two seconds after the pump comes on (I think II is
> the on position, 'll tkae a look at the key when I check the grounds)



If the problem is intermittent and the Main Relay's been checked out OK,
I'd certainly be checking for ground problems. Correct Main Relay, ECU
and ignition operation is heavily dependent on proper grounding.

When did the issue surface? Did it happen all of a sudden? Any rust on
the car? Any recent collision damage?


>
> :
> : Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to
> : body ground strap. How are they?
>
> Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that
> carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
> strap



Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to the
rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot smaller than
the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's often frayed, broken
or missing entirely. That's part of the reason some people have such
trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds.

Besides, battery negative goes to the body, not the engine! Battery
positive goes to the starter, which is on the engine. Don't mix them up,
whatever you do!



> (I'm stupid)? I had the timing belt and the radiator
> hoses changed a few months ago, are either of those attachments the
> sort that'd have beend disconnected for those services?
>



If the thermostat housing was opened up, that's when somebody often
misses the little wire going to that third bolt. Leaving the ECU ground
undone can cause some pretty strange problems.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:10:57 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
: hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in news:1197906337.39292
: @news.queue.to:
:
: > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
: > condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
: > won't catch.
: >
: > When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and the
: > fuel pump doesn't run.
:
:
:
: The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned to
: "II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...

Not all the time, it goes out when the relay finally clicks the second
time and the fuel pump starts right up at that point. When the
problem is expressing itself it'll stay on for as long as I sit there
and wait for it, sometimes 3-4 minutes after turning the key to on,
and extinguishes two seconds after the pump comes on (I think II is
the on position, 'll tkae a look at the key when I check the grounds)

:
: Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to body ground
: strap. How are they?

Not sure. Is the engine to body ground the same thick strap that
carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
strap (I'm stupid)?

(I had the timing belt and the radiator hoses changed a few months ago,
are either of those attachments the sort that'd have beend
disconnected for those services?)

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:45:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
: hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
: news:1197931832.3508@news.queue.to:
:
: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:10:57 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m>
: > wrote:
: > : hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in news:1197906337.39292
: > : @news.queue.to:
: > :
: > : > I have a 94 Accord EX with an intermittent fuel pump not running
: > : > condition when trying to start the car. I can crank it forever it
: > : > won't catch.
: > : >
: > : > When the condition occurs the check engine light remains on and
: > : > the fuel pump doesn't run.
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : The Check Engine light stays ON all the time when the key is turned
: > : to "II"? That's one /possible/ sign of a bad ECU...
: >
: > Not all the time, it goes out when the relay finally clicks the second
: > time and the fuel pump starts right up at that point. When the
: > problem is expressing itself it'll stay on for as long as I sit there
: > and wait for it, sometimes 3-4 minutes after turning the key to on,
: > and extinguishes two seconds after the pump comes on (I think II is
: > the on position, 'll tkae a look at the key when I check the grounds)
:
:
:
: If the problem is intermittent and the Main Relay's been checked out OK,
: I'd certainly be checking for ground problems. Correct Main Relay, ECU
: and ignition operation is heavily dependent on proper grounding.
:
: When did the issue surface? Did it happen all of a sudden? Any rust on
: the car? Any recent collision damage?
:

It started happening suddenly. The only thing done was the radiator
hose change and the timing belt/oil pump. No rust, no collissions.


:
: >
: > :
: > : Check the ECU ground at the thermostat housing. Check engine to
: > : body ground strap. How are they?
: >
: > Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that
: > carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
: > strap
:
:
:
: Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to the
: rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot smaller than
: the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's often frayed, broken
: or missing entirely. That's part of the reason some people have such
: trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds.
:
: Besides, battery negative goes to the body, not the engine! Battery
: positive goes to the starter, which is on the engine. Don't mix them up,
: whatever you do!
:

Oh from the valve cover to the rad support? I don't remember seeing
one there. There's about three grounds brought together somewhat
beneath the valve cover on the engine front/passenger side, those are
nice and tight and I cleaned them up. I'll look for the spot for htis
other one. It should be shown in the Honda service manual so you
shouldn't need to point me to this one (wishful thinking I think!
This one has me stymied).

:
:
: > (I'm stupid)? I had the timing belt and the radiator
: > hoses changed a few months ago, are either of those attachments the
: > sort that'd have beend disconnected for those services?
: >
:
:
:
: If the thermostat housing was opened up, that's when somebody often
: misses the little wire going to that third bolt. Leaving the ECU ground
: undone can cause some pretty strange problems.

Ahhhh cool I'll hunt this down and report back this eve. Thank you
for the great info and quick response

hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
news:1197935760.10125@news.queue.to:

> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:45:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m>
> wrote:

> : >
> : > Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that
> : > carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
> : > strap
> :
> :
> :
> : Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to
> : the rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot
> : smaller than the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's
> : often frayed, broken or missing entirely. That's part of the reason
> : some people have such trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds.



I should have checked earlier to be sure. It appears your engine ground
goes from valve cover to the left-hand shock tower area, not the rad
support.

You've also got a couple of grounds to the transmission housing.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:05:18 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
: hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
: news:1197935760.10125@news.queue.to:
:
: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:45:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m>
: > wrote:
:
: > : >
: > : > Not sure. The engine to body ground is the same thick strap that
: > : > carries the battery negative to the engine or is this a different
: > : > strap
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : Different. The engine-to-body ground goes from the valve cover to
: > : the rad support. It's usally a wire about 3/16" diameter, a lot
: > : smaller than the battery negative cable. On much older cars it's
: > : often frayed, broken or missing entirely. That's part of the reason
: > : some people have such trouble with older cars: Missing/bad grounds.
:
:
:
: I should have checked earlier to be sure. It appears your engine ground
: goes from valve cover to the left-hand shock tower area, not the rad
: support.
:
: You've also got a couple of grounds to the transmission housing.

Thanks. That has got to be the one on the driver's side from the
corner of thevalve cover, goes a few inches over to that tower and
then over to the frame. I cleaned those up with no-residue cleaner
and did a few tightening/untightening cycles, move the tab around, etc
to try to dislodge any gunk. Also did the same to the grounds
attached to the intake manifold (driver side, there's an attachment
point with two heavyish cables each paired with two thin yellow cables
(?)(but it does go to bare metal)(the manual says those are the ECM
grounds? What a weird place to bring them?)

Before I did that though I ohmed out the leads back to the negative
battery cable with the cable detached from the battery and they looked
ok. *However* the problem was not existent when I started doing this.

Another question please: You mentioned another ground over by the
temperature housing? Is this on the firewall-side of the engine,
passenger side? I couldn't find a ground wire there but I don't think
I"m looking in the right place, or I'm not able to see it easily

:
:

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:05:18 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
: You've also got a couple of grounds to the transmission housing.

Should I expect any with a standard transmission?

hgoldste@mpcs.com (Howard Goldstein) wrote in
news:1197938730.15124@news.queue.to:


>
> Thanks. That has got to be the one on the driver's side from the
> corner of thevalve cover, goes a few inches over to that tower and
> then over to the frame.



That's the one.



> I cleaned those up with no-residue cleaner
> and did a few tightening/untightening cycles, move the tab around, etc
> to try to dislodge any gunk. Also did the same to the grounds
> attached to the intake manifold (driver side, there's an attachment
> point with two heavyish cables each paired with two thin yellow cables
> (?)(but it does go to bare metal)(the manual says those are the ECM
> grounds? What a weird place to bring them?)



My manual says G101, which is the one under the engine end of the lower rad
hose, which is also the thermostat housing.


>
> Before I did that though I ohmed out the leads back to the negative
> battery cable with the cable detached from the battery and they looked
> ok. *However* the problem was not existent when I started doing this.
>
> Another question please: You mentioned another ground over by the
> temperature housing? Is this on the firewall-side of the engine,
> passenger side? I couldn't find a ground wire there but I don't think
> I"m looking in the right place, or I'm not able to see it easily



It's immediately under the engine end of the lower rad hose. Some cars use
only two bolts on the thermostat housing, with the ground cable attached to
of those two bolts. Hunt around for an unconnected wire around that
location.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/