Honda Car Forum

I have Honda Accord LX 2000, 2.3L engine, 101 000 miles. Two month ago, I
had a problem with my car (check engine code P1457). See my post from
1/24/07. After excellent advice from Tegger, Honda agreed top pay for the
parts (evap canister, shut-off valve and two-way by-pass valve) and problem
was fixed.
Few days ago and about 3000 driven miles later, check engine light came on
again. AutoZone test indicated code P1167, (manufacturer controlled fuel and
air metering).
Checking the code P1167 on www.tegger.com I got two following diagnoses:

P1167 Air/Fuel Ratio (A/F) Sensor (Sensor 1) Heater System Malfunction
P1167 Heated Oxygen Sensor Sensor1 (Primary LAF HO2S) Heater System
Malfunction

Before I call the Honda dealer (closest one is located about 60 miles away),
I wonder If I could get some insight here as to what may be the problem,
how to proceed and if it could be fixed locally. Can it be in any way
related to my previous problem? Can the car be driven in the meantime. Car
is running OK, nothing unusual.
Thanks,
Frank

"frank777" <frank777@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:iL-dnfNVG-iw94_bnZ2dnUVZ_tGvnZ2d@adelphia.com:

> I have Honda Accord LX 2000, 2.3L engine, 101 000 miles. Two month
> ago, I had a problem with my car (check engine code P1457). See my
> post from 1/24/07. After excellent advice from Tegger, Honda agreed
> top pay for the parts (evap canister, shut-off valve and two-way
> by-pass valve) and problem was fixed.
> Few days ago and about 3000 driven miles later, check engine light
> came on again. AutoZone test indicated code P1167, (manufacturer
> controlled fuel and air metering).
> Checking the code P1167 on www.tegger.com I got two following
> diagnoses:
>
> P1167 Air/Fuel Ratio (A/F) Sensor (Sensor 1) Heater System Malfunction
> P1167 Heated Oxygen Sensor Sensor1 (Primary LAF HO2S) Heater System
> Malfunction




Your codes are of the "enhanced" variety. Mandated codes are in the
P05xx range.

This often means the problem is not affecting your emissions the way a
P0xxx code would indicate.



>
> Before I call the Honda dealer (closest one is located about 60 miles
> away), I wonder If I could get some insight here as to what may be
> the problem,



I'm guessing here...

A/F sensors run at about 1,500F, so optimum performance is required from
the element's heater. Maybe the heater is showing signs of degradation,
but not degradation suffficient to trigger a P05xx code.

Those heaters fail _very_ often.



> how to proceed and if it could be fixed locally.



It certainly can, but you need somebody with a goodly amount of smarts
and experience in these matters.

I'd start with a check of wiring resistance. It may just be the
connectors are bit corroded. Lotsa current running through that heater,
so it doesn't take much to foul matters up.

Before replacing the sensor, I'd get a shop to do a general check of the
OBD system, preferably with an OBD-II reader with graphing capability
and the ability to show you real-time data (a laptop-computer solution
is best). Your corner garage guy or AutoZone with a cheapie generic
Actron is unlikely to be able to figure this one out.



> Can it
> be in any way related to my previous problem?




Not likely.




> Can the car be driven in
> the meantime.



No problem. No harm done. Take your time.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

My friend/car mechanic does not have the ODB tester/reader, so we cannot run
diagnostic checks.
What should be the wiring resistance reading in Ohms?
And if it checks OK, which sensor should we change first? O2 or A/F ?
Should I buy it from Honda? I have read someplace, that generic sensors do
not work well.
How can we check if heater itself is getting bad?
And one more unrelated question. My lower ball joints need replacing. Is it
OK to buy them from AutoZone? Are they good enough? They are only $32/each.
Thanks, Frank



"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns9907D97E85467tegger@207.14.116.130...
> "frank777" <frank777@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:iL-dnfNVG-iw94_bnZ2dnUVZ_tGvnZ2d@adelphia.com:
>
>> I have Honda Accord LX 2000, 2.3L engine, 101 000 miles. Two month
>> ago, I had a problem with my car (check engine code P1457). See my
>> post from 1/24/07. After excellent advice from Tegger, Honda agreed
>> top pay for the parts (evap canister, shut-off valve and two-way
>> by-pass valve) and problem was fixed.
>> Few days ago and about 3000 driven miles later, check engine light
>> came on again. AutoZone test indicated code P1167, (manufacturer
>> controlled fuel and air metering).
>> Checking the code P1167 on www.tegger.com I got two following
>> diagnoses:
>>
>> P1167 Air/Fuel Ratio (A/F) Sensor (Sensor 1) Heater System Malfunction
>> P1167 Heated Oxygen Sensor Sensor1 (Primary LAF HO2S) Heater System
>> Malfunction
>
>
>
>
> Your codes are of the "enhanced" variety. Mandated codes are in the
> P05xx range.
>
> This often means the problem is not affecting your emissions the way a
> P0xxx code would indicate.
>
>
>
>>
>> Before I call the Honda dealer (closest one is located about 60 miles
>> away), I wonder If I could get some insight here as to what may be
>> the problem,
>
>
>
> I'm guessing here...
>
> A/F sensors run at about 1,500F, so optimum performance is required from
> the element's heater. Maybe the heater is showing signs of degradation,
> but not degradation suffficient to trigger a P05xx code.
>
> Those heaters fail _very_ often.
>
>
>
>> how to proceed and if it could be fixed locally.
>
>
>
> It certainly can, but you need somebody with a goodly amount of smarts
> and experience in these matters.
>
> I'd start with a check of wiring resistance. It may just be the
> connectors are bit corroded. Lotsa current running through that heater,
> so it doesn't take much to foul matters up.
>
> Before replacing the sensor, I'd get a shop to do a general check of the
> OBD system, preferably with an OBD-II reader with graphing capability
> and the ability to show you real-time data (a laptop-computer solution
> is best). Your corner garage guy or AutoZone with a cheapie generic
> Actron is unlikely to be able to figure this one out.
>
>
>
>> Can it
>> be in any way related to my previous problem?
>
>
>
>
> Not likely.
>
>
>
>
>> Can the car be driven in
>> the meantime.
>
>
>
> No problem. No harm done. Take your time.
>
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"frank777" <frank777@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:P7WdnTUVfuLsk4nbnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@adelphia.com :

> My friend/car mechanic does not have the ODB tester/reader, so we
> cannot run diagnostic checks.
> What should be the wiring resistance reading in Ohms?



I'm not sure, but I'd guess it should be zero. I can see even a few
milli-ohms interfering with that current level.



> And if it checks OK, which sensor should we change first? O2 or A/F ?



Your error codes say the primary is reporting problems, so you would
need to replace the one that's the primary, which is an A/F sensor. I
don't know if your secondary is an oxygen sensor or an air-fuel ratio
sensor. The primary is the one at the engine side of the cat.

Please take careful note here that without proper diag, I cannot
recommend replacement of the sensor except as a "hope". Replacement may
not solve your recurrent error if the sensor was not the cause of the
problem in the first place. Wiring problems can also cause this error.

You should also contact your closest dealer and ask if there are any
TSBs associated with your VIN and the P1167 error, or with A/F sensor
problems.



> Should I buy it from Honda? I have read someplace, that generic
> sensors do not work well.



That is correct. OEM Honda is very expensive, but far, far more
reliable. Aftermarket might be OK, but you are just as likely to have
driveability problems instead, especially considering the level of
performance expected from A/F sensors and their heaters.



> How can we check if heater itself is getting bad?



I'm not sure there is a test. As far as I know the OBD does all the
reporting on that. I haven't checked, but it may be possible to measure
current through the heater wires, which I think is how the OBD checks
heater integrity. When I get a minute I'll go through the manuals I do
have and see if a current figure is given.



> And one more unrelated question. My lower ball joints need replacing.
> Is it OK to buy them from AutoZone? Are they good enough? They are
> only $32/each.



Depends how long you want the replacements to last. The AZ ones will be
OK for a couple/few years. Maybe. If they're not defective. OEM Honda
ones will not be defective and will last much longer than aftermarket.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9908B7076CFC9tegger@207.14.116.130:


> I'm not sure there is a test. As far as I know the OBD does all the
> reporting on that. I haven't checked, but it may be possible to
> measure current through the heater wires, which I think is how the OBD
> checks heater integrity. When I get a minute I'll go through the
> manuals I do have and see if a current figure is given.



There is not a current figure given. There are a number of continuity
checks specified, though.

Upshot here is that your chosen tech -- independent or dealer -- needs to
have the necessary equipment, documentation and wiring diagrams (readily
available from Honda's Techinfo site), to properly troubleshoot this
problem.

It further appears from my sleuthing that it is possible for a
malfunctioning A/F sensor relay to manifest the P1167 error.

You really do need a good tech, not a shotgun.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger, thanks a lot for you insight. I really appreciate that you spend
your valuable time helping people you do not even know. We will do the
checks as you recommend, and if not successful, I'll call the dealer next
week and let you guys know after problem is fixed.

"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns9908CF9362A10tegger@207.14.116.130...
> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns9908B7076CFC9tegger@207.14.116.130:
>
>
>> I'm not sure there is a test. As far as I know the OBD does all the
>> reporting on that. I haven't checked, but it may be possible to
>> measure current through the heater wires, which I think is how the OBD
>> checks heater integrity. When I get a minute I'll go through the
>> manuals I do have and see if a current figure is given.
>
>
>
> There is not a current figure given. There are a number of continuity
> checks specified, though.
>
> Upshot here is that your chosen tech -- independent or dealer -- needs to
> have the necessary equipment, documentation and wiring diagrams (readily
> available from Honda's Techinfo site), to properly troubleshoot this
> problem.
>
> It further appears from my sleuthing that it is possible for a
> malfunctioning A/F sensor relay to manifest the P1167 error.
>
> You really do need a good tech, not a shotgun.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Just an update:
I disconnected the battery for about 15 minutes to reset the light. It's
been about a week and few hundred driven miles later and so far, check
engine light did not come back on. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Just a quick question in case the check engine light dose come back on. My
local mechanic recommends changing O2 primary sensor 1. He sad he had good
luck with sensors from NAPA, price about $90. At Honda dealership, it costs
about $150.
Is it worth to pay extra for Honda part?
Thanks,
Frank



"frank777" <frank777@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:taCdnbZ6vf6S-4vbnZ2dnUVZ_uGjnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> Tegger, thanks a lot for you insight. I really appreciate that you spend
> your valuable time helping people you do not even know. We will do the
> checks as you recommend, and if not successful, I'll call the dealer next
> week and let you guys know after problem is fixed.
>
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns9908CF9362A10tegger@207.14.116.130...
>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>> news:Xns9908B7076CFC9tegger@207.14.116.130:
>>
>>
>>> I'm not sure there is a test. As far as I know the OBD does all the
>>> reporting on that. I haven't checked, but it may be possible to
>>> measure current through the heater wires, which I think is how the OBD
>>> checks heater integrity. When I get a minute I'll go through the
>>> manuals I do have and see if a current figure is given.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is not a current figure given. There are a number of continuity
>> checks specified, though.
>>
>> Upshot here is that your chosen tech -- independent or dealer -- needs to
>> have the necessary equipment, documentation and wiring diagrams (readily
>> available from Honda's Techinfo site), to properly troubleshoot this
>> problem.
>>
>> It further appears from my sleuthing that it is possible for a
>> malfunctioning A/F sensor relay to manifest the P1167 error.
>>
>> You really do need a good tech, not a shotgun.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
>

"frank777" <frank.fv777@roadrunner.com> wrote in
news:4624e459$0$9951$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> Just an update:
> I disconnected the battery for about 15 minutes to reset the light.
> It's been about a week and few hundred driven miles later and so far,
> check engine light did not come back on. Keeping my fingers crossed.



Maybe you'll get lucky...



> Just a quick question in case the check engine light dose come back
> on. My local mechanic recommends changing O2 primary sensor 1. He sad
> he had good luck with sensors from NAPA, price about $90. At Honda
> dealership, it costs about $150.
> Is it worth to pay extra for Honda part?



Yes. Definitely.

Aftermarket sensors run a greater failure and driveability risk than I'm
comfortable with.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/