Honda Car Forum

Tegger wrote:

> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-335231.06540221032007@nntp9.usenetserver.com:
>
>
>>In article <Xns98F9CE983E9B5tegger@207.14.116.130>,
>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>As Curly mentions, when you take the bolt off you need wipe off all of
>>>>the metal goo that is attached to the bolt. Also replace the crush
>>>>washer and use a pole if you need extra leverage (I end up always
>>>>needing it). I just believe that it may be overkill to replace the
>>>>fluid three times.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That is the factory specification.
>>
>>For a full exchange, that's the factory specification (as opposed to a
>>"flush" which is not recommended under any circumstances).
>
>
>
>
> I've recently been following a couple of highly interesting threads
> in rec.autos.tech.
>
> In that group, a working tech with lots of transmission experience
> described the flush procedure, plus his many observations of
> disassembled transmissions.
>
> 1) A "flush" is not what I was thinking it was.
> 2) Sludge does not build up inside the valve body or shift valves.
>
> Conclusion: The prohibition on "flushing" is "Internet wisdom".
> There is nothing wrong with a "flush" as routinely performed by garages.
>
> Check out this thread:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.tech/browse_frm/thread/ff3d521790590332/b9c3aacf10b40f6d?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1#b9c3aacf10b40f6d >
>
> Look for posts in that thread by:
> shiden_kai
>


A local independent garage that specializes in Hondas has been
"flushing" automatics for years without problems.

Interesting read!

JT

In article <Xns98FAE6D7BB9CBtegger@207.14.116.130>,
Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

> Conclusion: The prohibition on "flushing" is "Internet wisdom".
> There is nothing wrong with a "flush" as routinely performed by garages.

Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle to
replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your goal), and
not any kind of a flush.

It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.

I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does a
bunch of tranny work".

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <Xns98FAE6D7BB9CBtegger@207.14.116.130>,
> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>
>>Conclusion: The prohibition on "flushing" is "Internet wisdom".
>>There is nothing wrong with a "flush" as routinely performed by garages.
>
>
> Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle to
> replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your goal), and
> not any kind of a flush.
>
> It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.
>
> I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does a
> bunch of tranny work".
>


I dunno... It also ensures that Honda will sell three time as much oil
as would be needed in a conventional system that has a drain plug on the
converter where most of the fluid resides. Utter cheapness on Honda's
part, (bean counter engineering), IMNSHO.. Also, as I stated in
another post, an independent shop that specializes in Hondas near me has
been "flushing" automatics for years without incident.

JT

In article <8xxMh.651$f56.463@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:

> > Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle to
> > replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your goal), and
> > not any kind of a flush.
> >
> > It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.
> >
> > I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does a
> > bunch of tranny work".
> >
>
>
> I dunno... It also ensures that Honda will sell three time as much oil
> as would be needed in a conventional system that has a drain plug on the
> converter where most of the fluid resides.

Again, Honda doesn't specify the multiple cycle drain/refill as a
regular maintenance. They specify only a singly iteration as the
regular maintenance.

They specify the multiple cycle drain/refill only for those times when a
fairly full replacement is desired, and that is not the case for regular
maintenance.


> Also, as I stated in
> another post, an independent shop that specializes in Hondas near me has
> been "flushing" automatics for years without incident.

I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does a
bunch of tranny work".

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>
>> In article <Xns98FAE6D7BB9CBtegger@207.14.116.130>,
>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Conclusion: The prohibition on "flushing" is "Internet wisdom".
>>> There is nothing wrong with a "flush" as routinely performed by garages.
>>
>>
>> Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle to
>> replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your goal), and
>> not any kind of a flush.
>>
>> It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.
>>
>> I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does a
>> bunch of tranny work".
>>
>
>
> I dunno... It also ensures that Honda will sell three time as much oil
> as would be needed in a conventional system that has a drain plug on the
> converter where most of the fluid resides. Utter cheapness on Honda's
> part, (bean counter engineering), IMNSHO.. Also, as I stated in
> another post, an independent shop that specializes in Hondas near me has
> been "flushing" automatics for years without incident.

it's such a crock when they say stuff like that. "without incident"
means what exactly? no fireball explosion? no leakage? do they
actually monitor individual transmissions? over what period?

what i usually see is it gets "flushed" with non-honda atf, the shift
quality goes to heck, and the transmission gets replaced because "when
they start to shift like that, they're just about to go". i got my 89
civic like that. 106k genuine miles, shift quality all to blazes.
chick selling it couldn't offload it fast enough as she'd clearly been
terrorized about cost of replacing "the inevitable failure". here i am
57k later and that transmission is smooth as silk thanks to drain &
refill with genuine honda atf.

and don't get too panty-bunched about frequent transmission oil changes
either. look at the change schedule in the owner manual and believe it.
friends had a 360k accord that had *never* been changed. worked
perfectly.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <8xxMh.651$f56.463@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle to
>>>replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your goal), and
>>>not any kind of a flush.
>>>
>>>It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.
>>>
>>>I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does a
>>>bunch of tranny work".
>>>
>>
>>
>>I dunno... It also ensures that Honda will sell three time as much oil
>>as would be needed in a conventional system that has a drain plug on the
>>converter where most of the fluid resides.
>
>
> Again, Honda doesn't specify the multiple cycle drain/refill as a
> regular maintenance. They specify only a singly iteration as the
> regular maintenance.
>
> They specify the multiple cycle drain/refill only for those times when a
> fairly full replacement is desired, and that is not the case for regular
> maintenance.
>
>
>
>>Also, as I stated in
>>another post, an independent shop that specializes in Hondas near me has
>>been "flushing" automatics for years without incident.
>
>
> I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does a
> bunch of tranny work".
>


I think that we'll hafta agree to disagree on this one.

To me, anything less than a totally and easily accomplished fluid change
is like taking a bath then wearing the same ol' soiled socks 'n underwear...

<G>

JT

(Who hates strange rashes...)

jim beam wrote:

> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>
>>> In article <Xns98FAE6D7BB9CBtegger@207.14.116.130>,
>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Conclusion: The prohibition on "flushing" is "Internet wisdom".
>>>> There is nothing wrong with a "flush" as routinely performed by
>>>> garages.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle to
>>> replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your goal),
>>> and not any kind of a flush.
>>>
>>> It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.
>>>
>>> I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does
>>> a bunch of tranny work".
>>>
>>
>>
>> I dunno... It also ensures that Honda will sell three time as much
>> oil as would be needed in a conventional system that has a drain plug
>> on the converter where most of the fluid resides. Utter cheapness on
>> Honda's part, (bean counter engineering), IMNSHO.. Also, as I stated
>> in another post, an independent shop that specializes in Hondas near
>> me has been "flushing" automatics for years without incident.
>
>
> it's such a crock when they say stuff like that. "without incident"
> means what exactly? no fireball explosion? no leakage? do they
> actually monitor individual transmissions? over what period?


Sorry Jim, but I'm with Michael on this one. This shop which is in its
thrid generationn of family ownership with a loyal customer base is
proof 'nuff for me.

I never subscribe to much of the hype offered by manufacturers including
Honda where most of the profit exists with "service" after the sale.



>
> what i usually see is it gets "flushed" with non-honda atf, the shift
> quality goes to heck, and the transmission gets replaced because "when
> they start to shift like that, they're just about to go". i got my 89
> civic like that. 106k genuine miles, shift quality all to blazes. chick
> selling it couldn't offload it fast enough as she'd clearly been
> terrorized about cost of replacing "the inevitable failure". here i am
> 57k later and that transmission is smooth as silk thanks to drain &
> refill with genuine honda atf.
>

Where did I say "non Honda" fluid?



> and don't get too panty-bunched about frequent transmission oil changes
> either. look at the change schedule in the owner manual and believe it.
> friends had a 360k accord that had *never* been changed. worked
> perfectly.


It won't in Texas. Dino based fluids go kaput shortly after 50K. Don't
ask me how I know...

<G>

JT

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <Xns98FAE6D7BB9CBtegger@207.14.116.130>,
>>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Conclusion: The prohibition on "flushing" is "Internet wisdom".
>>>>> There is nothing wrong with a "flush" as routinely performed by
>>>>> garages.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle to
>>>> replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your goal),
>>>> and not any kind of a flush.
>>>>
>>>> It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.
>>>>
>>>> I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who does
>>>> a bunch of tranny work".
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I dunno... It also ensures that Honda will sell three time as much
>>> oil as would be needed in a conventional system that has a drain plug
>>> on the converter where most of the fluid resides. Utter cheapness on
>>> Honda's part, (bean counter engineering), IMNSHO.. Also, as I
>>> stated in another post, an independent shop that specializes in
>>> Hondas near me has been "flushing" automatics for years without
>>> incident.
>>
>>
>> it's such a crock when they say stuff like that. "without incident"
>> means what exactly? no fireball explosion? no leakage? do they
>> actually monitor individual transmissions? over what period?
>
>
> Sorry Jim, but I'm with Michael on this one. This shop which is in its
> thrid generationn of family ownership with a loyal customer base is
> proof 'nuff for me.

do they monitor individual transmissions? over what period?

>
> I never subscribe to much of the hype offered by manufacturers including
> Honda where most of the profit exists with "service" after the sale.

with respect, that's illogical. honda service intervals are /way/
longer than most shops will have you changing your oil, so there's no
"extra profit" built into their schedule. all the profit is with the
shops that have you spending money on excess oil changes.

>
>
>
>>
>> what i usually see is it gets "flushed" with non-honda atf, the shift
>> quality goes to heck, and the transmission gets replaced because "when
>> they start to shift like that, they're just about to go". i got my 89
>> civic like that. 106k genuine miles, shift quality all to blazes.
>> chick selling it couldn't offload it fast enough as she'd clearly been
>> terrorized about cost of replacing "the inevitable failure". here i
>> am 57k later and that transmission is smooth as silk thanks to drain &
>> refill with genuine honda atf.
>>
>
> Where did I say "non Honda" fluid?

do you /know/ they use honda fluid?

>
>
>
>> and don't get too panty-bunched about frequent transmission oil
>> changes either. look at the change schedule in the owner manual and
>> believe it. friends had a 360k accord that had *never* been changed.
>> worked perfectly.
>
>
> It won't in Texas. Dino based fluids go kaput shortly after 50K. Don't
> ask me how I know...

you mean heat problems, right? i have family in las vegas, so schlep on
over the high desert passes on the road from san francisco bay area
regularly. i haven't noticed any heat degradation problems on my
civics, and i wouldn't call death valley exactly chilly.

jim beam wrote:

> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <Xns98FAE6D7BB9CBtegger@207.14.116.130>,
>>>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Conclusion: The prohibition on "flushing" is "Internet wisdom".
>>>>>> There is nothing wrong with a "flush" as routinely performed by
>>>>>> garages.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle to
>>>>> replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your goal),
>>>>> and not any kind of a flush.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who
>>>>> does a bunch of tranny work".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I dunno... It also ensures that Honda will sell three time as much
>>>> oil as would be needed in a conventional system that has a drain
>>>> plug on the converter where most of the fluid resides. Utter
>>>> cheapness on Honda's part, (bean counter engineering), IMNSHO..
>>>> Also, as I stated in another post, an independent shop that
>>>> specializes in Hondas near me has been "flushing" automatics for
>>>> years without incident.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> it's such a crock when they say stuff like that. "without incident"
>>> means what exactly? no fireball explosion? no leakage? do they
>>> actually monitor individual transmissions? over what period?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry Jim, but I'm with Michael on this one. This shop which is in
>> its thrid generationn of family ownership with a loyal customer base
>> is proof 'nuff for me.
>
>
> do they monitor individual transmissions? over what period?
>

If they weren't performing satisfactory work, they would be out of business.



>>
>> I never subscribe to much of the hype offered by manufacturers
>> including Honda where most of the profit exists with "service" after
>> the sale.
>
>
> with respect, that's illogical. honda service intervals are /way/
> longer than most shops will have you changing your oil, so there's no
> "extra profit" built into their schedule. all the profit is with the
> shops that have you spending money on excess oil changes.
>

Uh, when I said "service," I implied the whole scheme of "service after
the sale." That is where the real profit(s) lie.



>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> what i usually see is it gets "flushed" with non-honda atf, the shift
>>> quality goes to heck, and the transmission gets replaced because
>>> "when they start to shift like that, they're just about to go". i
>>> got my 89 civic like that. 106k genuine miles, shift quality all to
>>> blazes. chick selling it couldn't offload it fast enough as she'd
>>> clearly been terrorized about cost of replacing "the inevitable
>>> failure". here i am 57k later and that transmission is smooth as
>>> silk thanks to drain & refill with genuine honda atf.
>>>
>>
>> Where did I say "non Honda" fluid?
>
>
> do you /know/ they use honda fluid?
>

Yes.



>>
>>
>>
>>> and don't get too panty-bunched about frequent transmission oil
>>> changes either. look at the change schedule in the owner manual and
>>> believe it. friends had a 360k accord that had *never* been
>>> changed. worked perfectly.
>>
>>
>>
>> It won't in Texas. Dino based fluids go kaput shortly after 50K.
>> Don't ask me how I know...
>
>
> you mean heat problems, right? i have family in las vegas, so schlep on
> over the high desert passes on the road from san francisco bay area
> regularly. i haven't noticed any heat degradation problems on my
> civics, and i wouldn't call death valley exactly chilly.

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <Xns98FAE6D7BB9CBtegger@207.14.116.130>,
>>>>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Conclusion: The prohibition on "flushing" is "Internet wisdom".
>>>>>>> There is nothing wrong with a "flush" as routinely performed by
>>>>>>> garages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except that Honda specifies only multiple drain/fill/drive cycle
>>>>>> to replace the fluid as completely as possible (if that's your
>>>>>> goal), and not any kind of a flush.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not Internet wisdom; it's Honda engineers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll take the Honda engineer wisdom any day over "some tech who
>>>>>> does a bunch of tranny work".
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I dunno... It also ensures that Honda will sell three time as much
>>>>> oil as would be needed in a conventional system that has a drain
>>>>> plug on the converter where most of the fluid resides. Utter
>>>>> cheapness on Honda's part, (bean counter engineering), IMNSHO..
>>>>> Also, as I stated in another post, an independent shop that
>>>>> specializes in Hondas near me has been "flushing" automatics for
>>>>> years without incident.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it's such a crock when they say stuff like that. "without incident"
>>>> means what exactly? no fireball explosion? no leakage? do they
>>>> actually monitor individual transmissions? over what period?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry Jim, but I'm with Michael on this one. This shop which is in
>>> its thrid generationn of family ownership with a loyal customer base
>>> is proof 'nuff for me.
>>
>>
>> do they monitor individual transmissions? over what period?
>>
>
> If they weren't performing satisfactory work, they would be out of
> business.

i hear what you say jt, but i gotta tell ya, that logic doesn't hold.
san francisco honda are quite unspeakably abysmal, either grossly
incompetent or utter rip-off, and they stay in business. so does the
kwik-lube place where my grandmother sometimes goes - you know the kind
of place: "your transmission fluid needs to be flushed urgently" - only
300 miles after i personally changed it.

fact is, most places do /not/ really know what they're talking about,
they simply go through a routine money-making routine while telling the
customer they're doing them a favor. and 99% of car owners know no
better [and nor do many mechanics for that matter]. to that 99%,
there's some nice professional person "offering friendly advice". and
cars are expensive to maintain - it just goes with the territory.

>
>
>
>>>
>>> I never subscribe to much of the hype offered by manufacturers
>>> including Honda where most of the profit exists with "service" after
>>> the sale.
>>
>>
>> with respect, that's illogical. honda service intervals are /way/
>> longer than most shops will have you changing your oil, so there's no
>> "extra profit" built into their schedule. all the profit is with the
>> shops that have you spending money on excess oil changes.
>>
>
> Uh, when I said "service," I implied the whole scheme of "service after
> the sale." That is where the real profit(s) lie.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> what i usually see is it gets "flushed" with non-honda atf, the
>>>> shift quality goes to heck, and the transmission gets replaced
>>>> because "when they start to shift like that, they're just about to
>>>> go". i got my 89 civic like that. 106k genuine miles, shift
>>>> quality all to blazes. chick selling it couldn't offload it fast
>>>> enough as she'd clearly been terrorized about cost of replacing "the
>>>> inevitable failure". here i am 57k later and that transmission is
>>>> smooth as silk thanks to drain & refill with genuine honda atf.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Where did I say "non Honda" fluid?
>>
>>
>> do you /know/ they use honda fluid?
>>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> and don't get too panty-bunched about frequent transmission oil
>>>> changes either. look at the change schedule in the owner manual and
>>>> believe it. friends had a 360k accord that had *never* been
>>>> changed. worked perfectly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It won't in Texas. Dino based fluids go kaput shortly after 50K.
>>> Don't ask me how I know...
>>
>>
>> you mean heat problems, right? i have family in las vegas, so schlep
>> on over the high desert passes on the road from san francisco bay area
>> regularly. i haven't noticed any heat degradation problems on my
>> civics, and i wouldn't call death valley exactly chilly.