Honda Car Forum

Solenoid on your pic is #9. Since it is combined with the starter
itself, you have to replace the whole thing. Get a refurbished or used
one - would be way cheaper.


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poofy4204 Wrote:
> No if the solenoid is bad the starter will still run, still creating
> some
> type or sound, it just wont engage with the flywheel. The solenoid has
> nothing to do with any electrical current what so ever at any given
> time
> during engine operation. It is like a little slide for the starter gear
> to
> rest on and move into position with the flywheel to start the vechile.
>
> Just thought you should know,
> Poofy
Please, don't post if you don't know what you are talking about, you
just mislead other people.


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poofy4204 wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>>>Thanks for the feedback. I have done my share of research and have
>>>come up with either:
>>
>>[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>>>http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no
>>
>>That link doesn't show the solenoid... on this picture:
>>http://autozone.com/images/cds/gif/l...3d801a9097.gif
>>it's the smaller cylinder on the right side of the assembly (this is for an
>>88-93 Integra, but shouldn't be too different).
>>
>>The solenoid is basically a combination of a high-current relay (to feed the
>>starter motor itself) and a mechanical throw-out that pushes the starter gear
>>into position to mesh with the flywheel.
>>
>>
>>>2) Ignition Unit Assembly
>>>
>>>http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no
>>
>>That would have nothing to do with the engine not turning over - that just
>>controls the spark.
>>
>>
>>>How do I go about troubleshooting this issue? Thanks in advance. I'll
>>>make sure post the learnings for this group.
>
> No if the solenoid is bad the starter will still run, still creating some
> type or sound, it just wont engage with the flywheel.

That depends on exactly what is wrong with the solenoid.

> The solenoid has
> nothing to do with any electrical current what so ever at any given time
> during engine operation. It is like a little slide for the starter gear to
> rest on and move into position with the flywheel to start the vechile.

I see. And you come by this gem of information, how? Obviously not from
rebuilding any starters. Tell us then, why does the big thick cable from my
battery connect to the back of the solenoid and not the starter motor itself?
Does the 200-350A that the starter is capable of drawing (according to the spec
in the manual) actually go through the little thin wiring to my key switch?
Explain the diagrams and schematic here then:
http://www.moltenimage.com/freebies/...ical/24-25.JPG

The solenoid on a *typical* electric starter is a two-function device: a
high-current relay *and* a mechanical throwout for the starter gears. At least,
it has been in assorted different Dodge, Mazda and Honda vehicles I've owned and
repaired over the years.

In fact, I've only ever seen one variation on the concept, and that was in old
Fords, where the solenoid was a standalone unit generally mounted to one side of
the engine bay that acted ONLY as a high-current relay for the starter lead, and
the gear throwout was strictly mechanical.

I just thought it might be starter relay or whatever it is called. I
mean not solenoid, but another relay between main switch and solenoid.
Expecially if there is no sound when you turn the key


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MishaA wrote:
> I just thought it might be starter relay or whatever it is called. I
> mean not solenoid, but another relay between main switch and solenoid.
> Expecially if there is no sound when you turn the key

My rant was more aimed at "poofy", who as you already noted, really doesn't know
what he's talking about

The solenoid IS the relay between the key switch and the starter - on my Accord,
there is nothing else between the key and the "S" terminal on the solenoid
(there's an interlock switch on automatics that prevents starting when not in
Park or Neutral, and some newer MT cars have an interlock on the clutch).

I don't believe the starter signal goes through the main relay (a common culprit
in most Hondas) either. If there's not even a "click" from the engine bay when
the key is turned, it's quite likely the solenoid that's that problem.

Take a look at the complete start/ignition wiring diagram for the G3 Accord:
http://moltenimage.com/freebies/g3ac...rical/24-3.JPG

Note the battery cable connects directly to the 'B' terminal on the solenoid;
the connection between the 'M' terminal and the starter motor itself is internal
(or semi-internal; it's a part of the assembly, in any case). When you turn the
key, the solenoid coil in energized directly; when the solenoid armature pulls
in, it makes the contact to power the starter motor, as well as pushing out the
starter gear (which isn't shown on the wiring diagram).

It's a time-tested and very effective design. Most cars' starter systems will
not differ significantly.

Yeah, just looked at my civic wiring diagram - you are right. I just
thought for some reason that solenoid current still should be too high
for ignition switch, so there should be one more relay in between, and
did not bother to check. My bad :frown:


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MishaA wrote:
> Yeah, just looked at my civic wiring diagram - you are right. I just
> thought for some reason that solenoid current still should be too high
> for ignition switch, so there should be one more relay in between, and
> did not bother to check. My bad :frown:

No problem. I don't know exactly what the current draw of the solenoid itself
it - it would be a fair bit, because it does have to move a relatively hefty
mechanism, and the starter lead in the steering-column wiring is rather thick (I
think 16 or 14 guage), but the bulk of the actual cranking current is switched
by the solenoid itself.

poofy4204 wrote:

> No if the solenoid is bad the starter will still run, still creating some
> type or sound, it just wont engage with the flywheel. The solenoid has
> nothing to do with any electrical current what so ever at any given time
> during engine operation. It is like a little slide for the starter gear to
> rest on and move into position with the flywheel to start the vechile.
>
> Just thought you should know,
> Poofy

I wish you would let the solenoid on my mitsuba starter know that.
It's gradually crapping out, and trust me, it does have something to
do with electricity to the starter. I can send you a schematic of the
solenoid
circuit if needed. The OP's problem sounds like a flaky solenoid, but I

would double check to make sure it's not the ignition switch before I
went to buy a new starter or solenoid. Sometimes flaky solenoids can
make a clunk, or make the starter act real slow like a nearly dead
battery.
It's also possible to have a bad one make no sound at all. But not sure
about hondas in particular. It's common for say a GM starter to not
make a
sound with a hot/bad solenoid. I've seen it many times. Once those cool
off, they usually start.
The problem on mine is the "slow motor/acts like a low battery
syndrome.
And it doesn't do it all the time. Sometimes it's perfectly normal.
Hondas generally use ND or Mitsuba starters. If you have a ND, you
are in luck. Contact kits for those are readily available. But the
mitsuba
starter, I've yet to find a stand alone solenoid or kit for sale so
far. Kinda sucks..
I have a perfectly good starter, but can't change the lousy micky mouse
solenoid. I may have to buy a whole new starter. I hear tell the ND's,
and mitubas will interchange..I'm almost tempted to change from the
mitsuba to the ND, so I can change the solenoid contacts in the
future.. But
then again, I may not have the car long enough to wear out another
starter,
unless they give me a piece of junk.
I had heard you could buy new contact kits from the dealer, but I asked
them the last time I was there, and they didn't have any.
BTW, solenoid problems are fairly common on honda starters. The
starters themselves are usually still good. I don't know why the auto
parts stores, or even the dealer can't stock just the solenoid. It's
all
about $$$. They want to sell you a new or rebuilt starter. And some of
the rebuilts are probably not as good as the old stock starter if it's
a OEM
part.
MK

nm5k@wt.net wrote:

> would double check to make sure it's not the ignition switch before I
> went to buy a new starter or solenoid.

OP already said he's got a new key switch and battery...

> Sometimes flaky solenoids can make a clunk, or make the starter
> act real slow like a nearly dead battery.
> It's also possible to have a bad one make no sound at all. But not sure
> about hondas in particular. It's common for say a GM starter to not
> make a sound with a hot/bad solenoid.

There are really three possible main points of failure specific to the solenoid:

1. Bad relay contacts: solenoid will "clunk" as the armature throws out, but
starter will not turn or will turn slowly;

2. Bad solenoid coil: weak or no "clunk" at all, as the coil fails to pull the
armature sufficiently to engage the relay contacts and/or the drive gear;

3. Bad throwout mechanism: starter will spin, but drive gear isn't being pushed
out, and will not engage.

Of course, loose connections are always a possibility as well, including the
short one between the solenoid and the starter motor itself.

> The problem on mine is the "slow motor/acts like a low battery
> syndrome.

Solenoid contacts are the likely culprits. Could also be a bad bearing in the
starter motor itself - when hot, parts stick as metal expands, you'd probably
hear a typical bad-bearing grinding/whining sound when it does crank over - or
bad brushes on the starter motor.

> I don't know why the auto parts stores, or even the dealer
> can't stock just the solenoid. It's all about $$$.
> They want to sell you a new or rebuilt starter.

Could always get a used one from an auto wrecker...

Matt Ion wrote:

> Solenoid contacts are the likely culprits. Could also be a bad bearing in the
> starter motor itself - when hot, parts stick as metal expands, you'd probably
> hear a typical bad-bearing grinding/whining sound when it does crank over - or
> bad brushes on the starter motor.

I'm fairly sure it's just the contacts. I might even see if I can clean
them
up and get a few more miles out of it before it totally goes south.
I'm fairly sure the motor is fine. The temp has no bearing on whether
it does it or not. It can do it cold or hot. When it does work right,
it
sounds normal. And that can be either hot or cold.
>
> > I don't know why the auto parts stores, or even the dealer
> > can't stock just the solenoid. It's all about $$$.
> > They want to sell you a new or rebuilt starter.
>
> Could always get a used one from an auto wrecker...

Yea, I but hate putting used electrical parts on. I guess it's an
option to avoid buying a whole new starter, but it's not one I'm
crazy about. I'm sure it would probably be half wore out unless
maybe I got one that was fairly new. But.. I sure to hate to replace
a perfectly good starter.. I'll probably have to deal with it pretty
soon.
I can still get it started every time, but it's gonna get worse, and
one day my luck is going to run out. Of course, Ruprects law
dictates that this must happen at the worst possible time.
IE: half way across town in a driving rain storm with no auto parts
open, being Ruprect always prefers to strike at night.. :/
MK