Honda Car Forum

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:-N6dnfBkMJ-jXoTYnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> blade wrote:
> <snip>
>> but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
>> adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
>> toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..
>
> really? what other cars have adjustable caster and camber from factory?
> and why would they need it?
>

Is this a loaded question?
Some older Honda's did have a ft caster adjustment. Subaru's have ft camber
(along with many other cars) Mazda Miata's and some Chryslers (as well as
others) have rear camber with the toe. The Chryslers cam be a challenge, for
you have to move a toe bolt and camber bolt and caress both numbers into
specs. I enjoyed the challenge.


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

Stephen H wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:-N6dnfBkMJ-jXoTYnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> blade wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
>>> adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
>>> toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..
>> really? what other cars have adjustable caster and camber from factory?
>> and why would they need it?
>>
>
> Is this a loaded question?
> Some older Honda's did have a ft caster adjustment. Subaru's have ft camber
> (along with many other cars) Mazda Miata's and some Chryslers (as well as
> others) have rear camber with the toe. The Chryslers cam be a challenge, for
> you have to move a toe bolt and camber bolt and caress both numbers into
> specs. I enjoyed the challenge.
>
>
ok, but that's not in the same way that toe is adjustable. and maybe i
should have said "what other MODERN cars... ". things like camber are
designed to be set at the factory and not monkeyed with again. the
logic is that any post-factory misalignment is an impact damage issue
and if it's not bent suspension componentry, it's the frame which needs
to be re-set to bring it back into spec. from an engineering
perspective, and assuming access to modern frame alignment gear, that's
a much more "correct" way of doing it, and one that manufacturers
capable of building decent and consistently well-aligned frames are
entitled to take advantage of.

> ok, but that's not in the same way that toe is adjustable. and maybe i
> should have said "what other MODERN cars... ". things like camber are
> designed to be set at the factory and not monkeyed with again. the logic
> is that any post-factory misalignment is an impact damage issue and if
> it's not bent suspension componentry, it's the frame which needs to be
> re-set to bring it back into spec. from an engineering perspective, and
> assuming access to modern frame alignment gear, that's a much more
> "correct" way of doing it, and one that manufacturers capable of building
> decent and consistently well-aligned frames are entitled to take advantage
> of.

Agreed! A alignment is a fine tune of the final components; seen many new
cars come with alignment out from the factory. (Mazda's come to mind)
Some cars you can get a few degrees out of a non adjustable point, And I'll
try it if necessary. Most people barely want an alignment looked at; they
sure don't want to take it to a frame/body shop.
We had an Eagle come into the Firestone I worked at from a local dealership;
at trade-in. This car had barely 60k on it but it was drove hard and put
away wet. So much wrong with it. I told them (after getting the numbers on a
alignment check) it needed to go to a body shop. They insisted we "just get
it to drive straight." We put adjustable cams on both ft tires; moved one
side in, the other out; still couldn't get it to drive correctly. They
eventually gave it to the "old timer" who knew (somewhat) what to move to
get it to drive decent. We should have never touched it and the dealer is
now out of business.

Steve

its interesting that you reference the
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm URL in your signature..
this was one of the sites i read to understand about alignment..
and i expected camber to be the reason why the outside of one tire
and inside of another were worn out..
now if the camber is not adjustable in many front wheel drive cars
then what is one to do?
in my case the camber on the front and rear is worse after the
alignment.. so they changed the camber.. how i dont know..
but it has changed for the worse..
my concern is how to make it better.. coz it cud be my imagination
but i am seeing a ring appear on the outside of my brand new
tires already..
ps: i am new to this whole aligmnent thing.. i wouldnt know which
other cars have this parameter adjustable and which dont.. why
some have it and why some dont.. but if you have the wheel tilted
inside or the outside hence favoring one edge or the other as
opposed to being vertical to the ground, my layman mind
would think that you would want that to be adjustable..

Stephen H wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:-N6dnfBkMJ-jXoTYnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> > blade wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
> >> adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
> >> toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..
> >
> > really? what other cars have adjustable caster and camber from factory?
> > and why would they need it?
> >
>
> Is this a loaded question?
> Some older Honda's did have a ft caster adjustment. Subaru's have ft camber
> (along with many other cars) Mazda Miata's and some Chryslers (as well as
> others) have rear camber with the toe. The Chryslers cam be a challenge, for
> you have to move a toe bolt and camber bolt and caress both numbers into
> specs. I enjoyed the challenge.
>
>
> --
> Stephen W. Hansen
> ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
> ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
> ASE Undercar Specialist
>
> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
> http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
> http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

What kind of car do you have, and do you have the alignment printout?


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

"blade" <qzmp86@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159380390.541731.35190@k70g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> its interesting that you reference the
> http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm URL in your signature..
> this was one of the sites i read to understand about alignment..
> and i expected camber to be the reason why the outside of one tire
> and inside of another were worn out..
> now if the camber is not adjustable in many front wheel drive cars
> then what is one to do?
> in my case the camber on the front and rear is worse after the
> alignment.. so they changed the camber.. how i dont know..
> but it has changed for the worse..
> my concern is how to make it better.. coz it cud be my imagination
> but i am seeing a ring appear on the outside of my brand new
> tires already..
> ps: i am new to this whole aligmnent thing.. i wouldnt know which
> other cars have this parameter adjustable and which dont.. why
> some have it and why some dont.. but if you have the wheel tilted
> inside or the outside hence favoring one edge or the other as
> opposed to being vertical to the ground, my layman mind
> would think that you would want that to be adjustable..
>
> Stephen H wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:-N6dnfBkMJ-jXoTYnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> > blade wrote:
>> > <snip>
>> >> but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
>> >> adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
>> >> toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..
>> >
>> > really? what other cars have adjustable caster and camber from
>> > factory?
>> > and why would they need it?
>> >
>>
>> Is this a loaded question?
>> Some older Honda's did have a ft caster adjustment. Subaru's have ft
>> camber
>> (along with many other cars) Mazda Miata's and some Chryslers (as well as
>> others) have rear camber with the toe. The Chryslers cam be a challenge,
>> for
>> you have to move a toe bolt and camber bolt and caress both numbers into
>> specs. I enjoyed the challenge.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Stephen W. Hansen
>> ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
>> ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
>> ASE Undercar Specialist
>>
>> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
>> http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
>> http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm
>

its a 99 honda accord LX 4-cyl.
i have the printout.. will try to scan it tommorow...
in the meanwhile the alignment readings are
posted at the beginning of the thread.
thanks.

Stephen H wrote:
> What kind of car do you have, and do you have the alignment printout?
>
>
> --
> Stephen W. Hansen
> ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
> ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
> ASE Undercar Specialist
>
> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
> http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
> http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm
>
> "blade" <qzmp86@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1159380390.541731.35190@k70g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> > its interesting that you reference the
> > http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm URL in your signature..
> > this was one of the sites i read to understand about alignment..
> > and i expected camber to be the reason why the outside of one tire
> > and inside of another were worn out..
> > now if the camber is not adjustable in many front wheel drive cars
> > then what is one to do?
> > in my case the camber on the front and rear is worse after the
> > alignment.. so they changed the camber.. how i dont know..
> > but it has changed for the worse..
> > my concern is how to make it better.. coz it cud be my imagination
> > but i am seeing a ring appear on the outside of my brand new
> > tires already..
> > ps: i am new to this whole aligmnent thing.. i wouldnt know which
> > other cars have this parameter adjustable and which dont.. why
> > some have it and why some dont.. but if you have the wheel tilted
> > inside or the outside hence favoring one edge or the other as
> > opposed to being vertical to the ground, my layman mind
> > would think that you would want that to be adjustable..
> >
> > Stephen H wrote:
> >> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> >> news:-N6dnfBkMJ-jXoTYnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >> > blade wrote:
> >> > <snip>
> >> >> but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
> >> >> adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
> >> >> toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..
> >> >
> >> > really? what other cars have adjustable caster and camber from
> >> > factory?
> >> > and why would they need it?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Is this a loaded question?
> >> Some older Honda's did have a ft caster adjustment. Subaru's have ft
> >> camber
> >> (along with many other cars) Mazda Miata's and some Chryslers (as well as
> >> others) have rear camber with the toe. The Chryslers cam be a challenge,
> >> for
> >> you have to move a toe bolt and camber bolt and caress both numbers into
> >> specs. I enjoyed the challenge.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Stephen W. Hansen
> >> ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
> >> ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
> >> ASE Undercar Specialist
> >>
> >> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
> >> http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
> >> http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm
> >

printout @ http://www.mediamax.com/qzmp8/Hosted/midaswhlalign.PDF
thanks.

blade wrote:
> its a 99 honda accord LX 4-cyl.
> i have the printout.. will try to scan it tommorow...
> in the meanwhile the alignment readings are
> posted at the beginning of the thread.
> thanks.
>
> Stephen H wrote:
> > What kind of car do you have, and do you have the alignment printout?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Stephen W. Hansen
> > ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
> > ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
> > ASE Undercar Specialist
> >
> > http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
> > http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
> > http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm
> >
> > "blade" <qzmp86@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1159380390.541731.35190@k70g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> > > its interesting that you reference the
> > > http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm URL in your signature..
> > > this was one of the sites i read to understand about alignment..
> > > and i expected camber to be the reason why the outside of one tire
> > > and inside of another were worn out..
> > > now if the camber is not adjustable in many front wheel drive cars
> > > then what is one to do?
> > > in my case the camber on the front and rear is worse after the
> > > alignment.. so they changed the camber.. how i dont know..
> > > but it has changed for the worse..
> > > my concern is how to make it better.. coz it cud be my imagination
> > > but i am seeing a ring appear on the outside of my brand new
> > > tires already..
> > > ps: i am new to this whole aligmnent thing.. i wouldnt know which
> > > other cars have this parameter adjustable and which dont.. why
> > > some have it and why some dont.. but if you have the wheel tilted
> > > inside or the outside hence favoring one edge or the other as
> > > opposed to being vertical to the ground, my layman mind
> > > would think that you would want that to be adjustable..
> > >
> > > Stephen H wrote:
> > >> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> > >> news:-N6dnfBkMJ-jXoTYnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> > >> > blade wrote:
> > >> > <snip>
> > >> >> but looks like u r saying that only the toe is
> > >> >> adjustable.. of the three parameters the 99 accord has only the
> > >> >> toe adjustable. that sounds woefully inadequate..
> > >> >
> > >> > really? what other cars have adjustable caster and camber from
> > >> > factory?
> > >> > and why would they need it?
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Is this a loaded question?
> > >> Some older Honda's did have a ft caster adjustment. Subaru's have ft
> > >> camber
> > >> (along with many other cars) Mazda Miata's and some Chryslers (as well as
> > >> others) have rear camber with the toe. The Chryslers cam be a challenge,
> > >> for
> > >> you have to move a toe bolt and camber bolt and caress both numbers into
> > >> specs. I enjoyed the challenge.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Stephen W. Hansen
> > >> ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
> > >> ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
> > >> ASE Undercar Specialist
> > >>
> > >> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
> > >> http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
> > >> http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm
> > >

Sorry, I didn't note you are the original poster!

Anyway, What I see is a cross camber problem in both front and rear, as if
the car took a slide sideways.
Optimum camber for front is 0 degrees, with a + or - of one degree, the rear
a -.5 with a plus or minus of 1 degree also.
LF is: OK RF is: .84, within limits but extreme
LR is: 1.22, within limits but extreme RR is: OK

Now, unless something is worn, there is no real way they moved it, unless it
was sloppy work. Sometimes the numbers do bounce around a bit, but I
wouldn't hold the shop responsible, although I am surprised they didn't
bring it to your attention that there is a adjustment problem.

Now the best fix is to see what is bent or worn; A cheaper route is to put
an adjustable camber kit on the RF and LR. You may think about putting it on
all 4 corners
Here are two examples of the parts needed; I'd check with a Napa
http://www.spcperformance.com/PerfPa...67125_165.html (a
front camber ball joint Adj)
http://www.spcperformance.com/PerfPa...art_67090.html (a rear
camber control arm Adj)

I hope this helps
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist
>> >>
>> >> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...l_obd_main.htm
>> >> http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
>> >> http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm
>> >
>