Honda Car Forum

> > I used the 1/4" plate glass lap technique on the deck and the head, just
to
> > make sure things were "planer". In doing the deck, I noticed that
> > cylinder liners were flush with the deck on the passenger side, and
slightly
> > lower than the deck on the driver's side.
>
> well spotted! a skimmed head wouldn't have helped you there. make sure
> you do the material on the outer edge of the block - there is supposed
> to be a tiny degree of protrusion of the steel liner from the aluminum
> to make full compression. you can lap a /tiny/ little extra from those
> outer edges to replicate that.

In looking at the new head gasket I could see the slight indentation
intended for the
portruding steel liner. I used a smaller piece of glass and spent
considerable time lapping the
perimeter in an attempt to make the steel liner portrude. Not sure if I was
successful
or not. Protrusion is not perceptable, but on some level I guess it is
portruding a
"/tiny/ little extra". I figure that some cylinder liners were recessed when
I originally took the
head off, and now they are not. That has to be an improvement.

> > I was able to improve upon this by
> > concentrating the lapping process on the one side . I guess these
cylinder
> > liners could have been a breach.
>
> it could have indeed. while you're in there, do an "idiot test" and
> just check the liner casting is not lose in any way. it shouldn't have
> shifted, but if it did, it would be a shame to discover it later.

Everything seems secure.

> > The stuff that I originally removed from
> > the top of the cylinder liners was very difficult to get off. Everything
is
> > smooth now, and hopefully will be more receptive to the new gasket.

> good. remember, cleanliness is absolutely freakin' essential! even
> microscopic abrasive grit ruins engines real fast. i learned this the
> hard way when i was a youth - it wasn't until i learned about failure
> analysis stuff later that i realized what i'd been doing wrong.
> seriously, i'd previously been lucky to get 10k out of any engine i'd
> had the head off and "cleaned" with abrasives.

I lapped the head while positioning the surface vertical, so nothing would
drain into the valves. Soap and water cleanup + WD40. And I turned the
cylinders about 10 revolutions wiping each cylinder in between.

I'm pretty close to closing it up. Some questions regarding belt tensions-

Timing Belt - I never was able to loosen the "tension nut" for the timing
belt.
I found that with some effort while rotating the camshaft pulley I was able
to
remove the timing belt from the camshaft pulley by sliding it sideways. So I
put it back on the same way, without adjusting the "tension nut". Does the
"tension nut" have to be loosened and tightened to automatically adjust the
belt tension?

Alternator & Power Steering Belts - How tight should these be? Is there a
"rule of thumb" for belt deflection?

Thanks again,

Gary

Gary Kaucher wrote:
>>> I used the 1/4" plate glass lap technique on the deck and the head, just
> to
>>> make sure things were "planer". In doing the deck, I noticed that
>>> cylinder liners were flush with the deck on the passenger side, and
> slightly
>>> lower than the deck on the driver's side.
>> well spotted! a skimmed head wouldn't have helped you there. make sure
>> you do the material on the outer edge of the block - there is supposed
>> to be a tiny degree of protrusion of the steel liner from the aluminum
>> to make full compression. you can lap a /tiny/ little extra from those
>> outer edges to replicate that.
>
> In looking at the new head gasket I could see the slight indentation
> intended for the
> portruding steel liner. I used a smaller piece of glass and spent
> considerable time lapping the
> perimeter in an attempt to make the steel liner portrude. Not sure if I was
> successful
> or not. Protrusion is not perceptable, but on some level I guess it is
> portruding a
> "/tiny/ little extra". I figure that some cylinder liners were recessed when
> I originally took the
> head off, and now they are not. That has to be an improvement.

better than most rebuild shops i'll bet!

>
>>> I was able to improve upon this by
>>> concentrating the lapping process on the one side . I guess these
> cylinder
>>> liners could have been a breach.
>> it could have indeed. while you're in there, do an "idiot test" and
>> just check the liner casting is not lose in any way. it shouldn't have
>> shifted, but if it did, it would be a shame to discover it later.
>
> Everything seems secure.
>
>>> The stuff that I originally removed from
>>> the top of the cylinder liners was very difficult to get off. Everything
> is
>>> smooth now, and hopefully will be more receptive to the new gasket.
>
>> good. remember, cleanliness is absolutely freakin' essential! even
>> microscopic abrasive grit ruins engines real fast. i learned this the
>> hard way when i was a youth - it wasn't until i learned about failure
>> analysis stuff later that i realized what i'd been doing wrong.
>> seriously, i'd previously been lucky to get 10k out of any engine i'd
>> had the head off and "cleaned" with abrasives.
>
> I lapped the head while positioning the surface vertical, so nothing would
> drain into the valves. Soap and water cleanup + WD40. And I turned the
> cylinders about 10 revolutions wiping each cylinder in between.
>
> I'm pretty close to closing it up. Some questions regarding belt tensions-
>
> Timing Belt - I never was able to loosen the "tension nut" for the timing
> belt.
> I found that with some effort while rotating the camshaft pulley I was able
> to
> remove the timing belt from the camshaft pulley by sliding it sideways. So I
> put it back on the same way, without adjusting the "tension nut". Does the
> "tension nut" have to be loosened and tightened to automatically adjust the
> belt tension?

yes, it's spring loaded. while you have everything off, you should be
able to get at it easily and loosen it. take it off, clean it up and
replace if the bearing's not butter smooth.

on replacement, you should be able to figure out the deal on tightening
it. basically, put everything back together with the lower covers,
pulley wheel, etc, but with the tensioner bolt grommet cover off. the
[14mm?] socket and a long handled ratchet fit in the space just fine if
the power steering pump's moved out of the way [don't disconnect hoses,
just unbolt the mountings and lift the whole thing to the side], then go
through the tensioning process*. when done, tighten the bolt, rotate
the crank three times, then tension again.

* rotate the crank counter clockwise so the cam rotates three teeth.
that has the drive side of the belt under maximum cam load. then, the
spring that loads the tensioner has exactly the correct adjustment,
provided the tensioner pulley is free to slide - that's why it's vital
to take it off and clean it up and make sure it'll work properly. make
sure the bolt's not too loose on the tensioner before you tighten it.
if it is, it can over-tension the belt because the pulley was not
sitting square on initial tension, but tightening the bolt squares it
too far.

[check a third time to make sure there's no slack on the non-drive side,
but that it's also not too tight.]

>
> Alternator & Power Steering Belts - How tight should these be? Is there a
> "rule of thumb" for belt deflection?

yes. i can't recall what the specs are, but they're supposed to deflect
within a certain amount [10mm?] when loaded - usually by spring balance.
i use a cheapo fishing scale from woolmort - gives you the load near
enough, and just measure the deflection from there. or just thumb it.
they'll squeal if loose...

>
> Thanks again,
>
> Gary
>
>
>

> [check a third time to make sure there's no slack on the non-drive side,
> but that it's also not too tight.]

I was too far along to recheck the timing belt. The power steering hoses and
side engine motor mount are in the way now. It took some effort to to put
the belt
on so I don't think there's a slack problem on the non-drive side. Simply
not enough
"backup" room to get my wrench on that adjuster nut. My tools are limited.
"Next
time" I will be more prepared.

> > Alternator & Power Steering Belts - How tight should these be? Is there
a
> > "rule of thumb" for belt deflection?
>
> yes. i can't recall what the specs are, but they're supposed to deflect
> within a certain amount [10mm?] when loaded - usually by spring balance.
> i use a cheapo fishing scale from woolmort - gives you the load near
> enough, and just measure the deflection from there. or just thumb it.
> they'll squeal if loose...


There is a short squeal upon startup only. Not sure which belt.


Well, I started everything up and for the last three days it really has been
running great! The motor
seems to be much "tighter" now, and it takes less foot pressure on the gas
pedal to generate the
same RPM's. No bubbles in the coolant reservoir! I have been keeping my eye
on the coolant level
and occasionally turning on the heater to purge the system. I added about
1.6 gallons before there were
any leaks. It runs like it's new.

But today, after 3 flawless days, I had my first coolant leak. In the
morning, I added a little coolant
to the reservoir as part of the ongoing purging process. I really don't
think there were any leaks up
until this point, and that this was the most coolant that the system had in
it so far.

My wife drove the car to work (8 miles), and said that there was noticeable
leaks under the car after she stopped.
The same thing happened, after she came home. I checked to see where the
leak was coming from, and
the leak is coming from the joint where the "steel coolant pipe" enters
under the thermostat housing.
The car is now sequestered, and will not move until fixed. At no time did
the temp gauge go up, and both
fans have been operating as expected.

I had installed the head and intake manifold as one unit. I had difficulty
making the connection to the "steel
coolant pipe" that connects under the thermostat housing. I replaced the
O-ring on the "steel coolant
pipe" with the one that I ordered [91314-PH7-003 (31.2 x 4.1)]. Either I
ordered the wrong one, or
the O-ring didn't seat properly. It was pretty hard to sleeve the "steel
coolant pipe" into the connection
while holding the head and intake manifold stable, so it's quite possible
that I didn't get a good seal.
I'm thinking that the leak showed up after three days because I had just
purged the system to the point that
there was no air to compress, and the O-ring connection was the weak point.
I hope that is the case.

What is the best way to access this joint so I can replace or reseat this
O-ring? Also, did I use the
correct O-ring? I can't seem to find the diagram on www.slhonda.com that I
ordered it from.

Thanks. It's unbelievable how great this engine sounds!

Gary

Gary Kaucher wrote:
>> [check a third time to make sure there's no slack on the non-drive side,
>> but that it's also not too tight.]
>
> I was too far along to recheck the timing belt. The power steering hoses and
> side engine motor mount are in the way now. It took some effort to to put
> the belt
> on so I don't think there's a slack problem on the non-drive side. Simply
> not enough
> "backup" room to get my wrench on that adjuster nut. My tools are limited.

you don't need room or special tools - it's accessed with everything in
place. it's only taking it off and cleaning everything up that requires
large scale removal.

> "Next
> time" I will be more prepared.
>
>>> Alternator & Power Steering Belts - How tight should these be? Is there
> a
>>> "rule of thumb" for belt deflection?
>> yes. i can't recall what the specs are, but they're supposed to deflect
>> within a certain amount [10mm?] when loaded - usually by spring balance.
>> i use a cheapo fishing scale from woolmort - gives you the load near
>> enough, and just measure the deflection from there. or just thumb it.
>> they'll squeal if loose...
>
>
> There is a short squeal upon startup only. Not sure which belt.

check the belt deflections - one will be obviously loose.

>
>
> Well, I started everything up and for the last three days it really has been
> running great! The motor
> seems to be much "tighter" now, and it takes less foot pressure on the gas
> pedal to generate the
> same RPM's. No bubbles in the coolant reservoir! I have been keeping my eye
> on the coolant level
> and occasionally turning on the heater to purge the system. I added about
> 1.6 gallons before there were
> any leaks. It runs like it's new.
>
> But today, after 3 flawless days, I had my first coolant leak. In the
> morning, I added a little coolant
> to the reservoir as part of the ongoing purging process. I really don't
> think there were any leaks up
> until this point, and that this was the most coolant that the system had in
> it so far.
>
> My wife drove the car to work (8 miles), and said that there was noticeable
> leaks under the car after she stopped.
> The same thing happened, after she came home. I checked to see where the
> leak was coming from, and
> the leak is coming from the joint where the "steel coolant pipe" enters
> under the thermostat housing.
> The car is now sequestered, and will not move until fixed. At no time did
> the temp gauge go up, and both
> fans have been operating as expected.
>
> I had installed the head and intake manifold as one unit. I had difficulty
> making the connection to the "steel
> coolant pipe" that connects under the thermostat housing. I replaced the
> O-ring on the "steel coolant
> pipe" with the one that I ordered [91314-PH7-003 (31.2 x 4.1)]. Either I
> ordered the wrong one, or
> the O-ring didn't seat properly. It was pretty hard to sleeve the "steel
> coolant pipe" into the connection
> while holding the head and intake manifold stable, so it's quite possible
> that I didn't get a good seal.
> I'm thinking that the leak showed up after three days because I had just
> purged the system to the point that
> there was no air to compress, and the O-ring connection was the weak point.
> I hope that is the case.

most likely. you'll have to take stuff off to get at it again, but do
the ring again, clean everything, then reassemble with a little soap.
if not lubed, sometimes o-rings bind and cut on assembly.

>
> What is the best way to access this joint so I can replace or reseat this
> O-ring? Also, did I use the
> correct O-ring? I can't seem to find the diagram on www.slhonda.com that I
> ordered it from.

can't you just remove the thermostat housing again? parts are in the
section called "water pump-sensor".

>
> Thanks. It's unbelievable how great this engine sounds!

don't forget to change that oil again a couple of hundred miles!

>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:GaGdneXkFtEe3njZnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Gary Kaucher wrote:
> >> [check a third time to make sure there's no slack on the non-drive
side,
> >> but that it's also not too tight.]
> >
> > I was too far along to recheck the timing belt. The power steering hoses
and
> > side engine motor mount are in the way now. It took some effort to to
put
> > the belt
> > on so I don't think there's a slack problem on the non-drive side.
Simply
> > not enough
> > "backup" room to get my wrench on that adjuster nut. My tools are
limited.
>
> you don't need room or special tools - it's accessed with everything in
> place. it's only taking it off and cleaning everything up that requires
> large scale removal.
>
> > "Next
> > time" I will be more prepared.
> >
> >>> Alternator & Power Steering Belts - How tight should these be? Is
there
> > a
> >>> "rule of thumb" for belt deflection?
> >> yes. i can't recall what the specs are, but they're supposed to
deflect
> >> within a certain amount [10mm?] when loaded - usually by spring
balance.
> >> i use a cheapo fishing scale from woolmort - gives you the load near
> >> enough, and just measure the deflection from there. or just thumb it.
> >> they'll squeal if loose...
> >
> >
> > There is a short squeal upon startup only. Not sure which belt.
>
> check the belt deflections - one will be obviously loose.
>
> >
> >
> > Well, I started everything up and for the last three days it really has
been
> > running great! The motor
> > seems to be much "tighter" now, and it takes less foot pressure on the
gas
> > pedal to generate the
> > same RPM's. No bubbles in the coolant reservoir! I have been keeping my
eye
> > on the coolant level
> > and occasionally turning on the heater to purge the system. I added
about
> > 1.6 gallons before there were
> > any leaks. It runs like it's new.
> >
> > But today, after 3 flawless days, I had my first coolant leak. In the
> > morning, I added a little coolant
> > to the reservoir as part of the ongoing purging process. I really don't
> > think there were any leaks up
> > until this point, and that this was the most coolant that the system had
in
> > it so far.
> >
> > My wife drove the car to work (8 miles), and said that there was
noticeable
> > leaks under the car after she stopped.
> > The same thing happened, after she came home. I checked to see where the
> > leak was coming from, and
> > the leak is coming from the joint where the "steel coolant pipe" enters
> > under the thermostat housing.
> > The car is now sequestered, and will not move until fixed. At no time
did
> > the temp gauge go up, and both
> > fans have been operating as expected.
> >
> > I had installed the head and intake manifold as one unit. I had
difficulty
> > making the connection to the "steel
> > coolant pipe" that connects under the thermostat housing. I replaced the
> > O-ring on the "steel coolant
> > pipe" with the one that I ordered [91314-PH7-003 (31.2 x 4.1)]. Either
I
> > ordered the wrong one, or
> > the O-ring didn't seat properly. It was pretty hard to sleeve the "steel
> > coolant pipe" into the connection
> > while holding the head and intake manifold stable, so it's quite
possible
> > that I didn't get a good seal.
> > I'm thinking that the leak showed up after three days because I had just
> > purged the system to the point that
> > there was no air to compress, and the O-ring connection was the weak
point.
> > I hope that is the case.
>
> most likely. you'll have to take stuff off to get at it again, but do
> the ring again, clean everything, then reassemble with a little soap.
> if not lubed, sometimes o-rings bind and cut on assembly.


OK. It was a tough fit. Wouldn't surprise me if the end of the pipe was
cracked.


> > What is the best way to access this joint so I can replace or reseat
this
> > O-ring? Also, did I use the
> > correct O-ring? I can't seem to find the diagram on www.slhonda.com that
I
> > ordered it from.
>
> can't you just remove the thermostat housing again? parts are in the
> section called "water pump-sensor".


Actually, I never removed the thermostat assembly from the intake manifold.
I don't think the Accord Shop Manual called for it. It was pretty awkward.
Next time, I
would remove the thermostat assembly. Maybe that is why the manual suggests
removing
and installing the intake manifold independant of the head on the 1994
models.


> > Thanks. It's unbelievable how great this engine sounds!
>
> don't forget to change that oil again a couple of hundred miles!


Will do. You still have scars from the head sanding jobs that you did in
your youth!


> >
> > Gary

> > > I had installed the head and intake manifold as one unit. I had
> difficulty
> > > making the connection to the "steel
> > > coolant pipe" that connects under the thermostat housing. I replaced
the
> > > O-ring on the "steel coolant
> > > pipe" with the one that I ordered [91314-PH7-003 (31.2 x 4.1)].
Either
> I
> > > ordered the wrong one, or
> > > the O-ring didn't seat properly. It was pretty hard to sleeve the
"steel
> > > coolant pipe" into the connection
> > > while holding the head and intake manifold stable, so it's quite
> possible
> > > that I didn't get a good seal.
> > > I'm thinking that the leak showed up after three days because I had
just
> > > purged the system to the point that
> > > there was no air to compress, and the O-ring connection was the weak
> point.
> > > I hope that is the case.
> >
> > most likely. you'll have to take stuff off to get at it again, but do
> > the ring again, clean everything, then reassemble with a little soap.
> > if not lubed, sometimes o-rings bind and cut on assembly.


The o-ring had a big gash in it because of the way I made the connection. I
should have removed the
thermostat case from the intake manifold when I removed the head/intake
manifold. It would have made things
way easier. Everything is now fixed and appears to be in working order.

Thanks for all your help!

Gary Kaucher wrote:
>>>> I had installed the head and intake manifold as one unit. I had
>> difficulty
>>>> making the connection to the "steel
>>>> coolant pipe" that connects under the thermostat housing. I replaced
> the
>>>> O-ring on the "steel coolant
>>>> pipe" with the one that I ordered [91314-PH7-003 (31.2 x 4.1)].
> Either
>> I
>>>> ordered the wrong one, or
>>>> the O-ring didn't seat properly. It was pretty hard to sleeve the
> "steel
>>>> coolant pipe" into the connection
>>>> while holding the head and intake manifold stable, so it's quite
>> possible
>>>> that I didn't get a good seal.
>>>> I'm thinking that the leak showed up after three days because I had
> just
>>>> purged the system to the point that
>>>> there was no air to compress, and the O-ring connection was the weak
>> point.
>>>> I hope that is the case.
>>> most likely. you'll have to take stuff off to get at it again, but do
>>> the ring again, clean everything, then reassemble with a little soap.
>>> if not lubed, sometimes o-rings bind and cut on assembly.
>
>
> The o-ring had a big gash in it because of the way I made the connection. I
> should have removed the
> thermostat case from the intake manifold when I removed the head/intake
> manifold. It would have made things
> way easier. Everything is now fixed and appears to be in working order.
>
> Thanks for all your help!
>
you're welcome! glad it worked. if you have any more problems, post a
fresh thread because i'm going to stop winding back to this one now.

atb