Honda Car Forum

Hi,
I see the following behavior on my '92 Accord:

- Brakes seem to function normally. Car comes to a complete stop with
a moderate amount of pressure on the brake pedal. At this point the
pedal is not 'on the floor'.
- At this point, if I maintain the same pedal pressure as was required
to stop the car, the brake pedal does not move; it stays off of the
floor. However, if I press harder, the pedal goes to the floor, with
resistance, but definitely goes to the floor.
- Pumping the pedal does not seem to affect this. I can always push it
to the floor if I try.

I think that this is not normal. But some things on the car change so
slowly over time that I forget 'how they used to be'.

Anyway, from reading other posts, it sounds like this could be:
- bad brake master cylinder
- excessively worn rear (drum) brakes

Things I have done (recently):
- check front brakes: plenty of pad left
- bleed front brakes (didn't change the behavior)

Car/Brake history:
- car has 140k miles on it
- front brake pads have 80k miles, but still plenty of pad left
- brake master cylinder was replaced some time in the late 90's
- I'm pretty sure that the rear (drum) brakes are original
- brake fluid has been changed several times over the years, but not
religously once a year or anything.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

By the way. I've replaced the front brake pads before, but I have zero
experience working with drum brakes. If 'adjusting' the drum brakes is
called for, where does that rate on the difficulty scale compared to
front (disc) brake pad replacement.

"eddie" <edwardbyrne@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1147917850.036845.51550@j55g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:

> Hi,
> I see the following behavior on my '92 Accord:
>
> - Brakes seem to function normally. Car comes to a complete stop with
> a moderate amount of pressure on the brake pedal. At this point the
> pedal is not 'on the floor'.
> - At this point, if I maintain the same pedal pressure as was required
> to stop the car, the brake pedal does not move; it stays off of the
> floor. However, if I press harder, the pedal goes to the floor, with
> resistance, but definitely goes to the floor.
> - Pumping the pedal does not seem to affect this. I can always push it
> to the floor if I try.



Bad master cylinder, or a leak somewhere. Does the master cylinder level go
down over time? If not, the "new" master cylinder is bad. If it does,
there's a leak. Don't know where you live, but you're at the right age to
have holed brake lines...

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

eddie wrote:
> Hi,
> I see the following behavior on my '92 Accord:
>
> - Brakes seem to function normally. Car comes to a complete stop with
> a moderate amount of pressure on the brake pedal. At this point the
> pedal is not 'on the floor'.
> - At this point, if I maintain the same pedal pressure as was required
> to stop the car, the brake pedal does not move; it stays off of the
> floor. However, if I press harder, the pedal goes to the floor, with
> resistance, but definitely goes to the floor.
> - Pumping the pedal does not seem to affect this. I can always push it
> to the floor if I try.
>
> I think that this is not normal. But some things on the car change so
> slowly over time that I forget 'how they used to be'.
>
> Anyway, from reading other posts, it sounds like this could be:
> - bad brake master cylinder
> - excessively worn rear (drum) brakes
>
> Things I have done (recently):
> - check front brakes: plenty of pad left
> - bleed front brakes (didn't change the behavior)
>
> Car/Brake history:
> - car has 140k miles on it
> - front brake pads have 80k miles, but still plenty of pad left
> - brake master cylinder was replaced some time in the late 90's
> - I'm pretty sure that the rear (drum) brakes are original
> - brake fluid has been changed several times over the years, but not
> religously once a year or anything.
>
> Any input is greatly appreciated.
>
> By the way. I've replaced the front brake pads before, but I have zero
> experience working with drum brakes. If 'adjusting' the drum brakes is
> called for, where does that rate on the difficulty scale compared to
> front (disc) brake pad replacement.
>
rear drums have nothing to do with it - it's bad master cylinder. if
it's a genuine honda m/c, you can buy seal kits.

Thanks for thre responses TeGGer and Jim.

The brake master cyclinder fluid level does NOT go down over time.

I'm in Colorado. The car had about 18 months in Virginia, then the
rest here in CO. It's really dry here. They don't salt the roads here
in the winter, but they have been using magnesium chloride for the past
several years. I'm not sure what that does to car metal...

So it is the master cylinder.

I think that the current (replacement) master cylinder is genuine honda
(because the service was done at a honda dealer), so I'll look into a
seal kit. Thanks for that tip.

BTW, TeGGer, your FAQ (especially the brake part) is really helpful.
Thanks for making it.

Aaarrrrggghhhh.
I bought a new master cylinder (from honda dealer) and installed it and
bled all four brake lines. The problem (see original post) is still
there! Gasp.

I've read on other posts and in my Chilton's book that a rear (drum)
brake problem can cause a long/soft brake pedal. I tried to inspect
the rear brakes, but I could not remove the drum. I was able to break
the drum free and it moves about an eighth of an inch, but will not
come off. I assume that I have a groove in the drum and the brake shoe
is in there, preventing the drum from coming off. I am going to buy a
brake spoon and try and 'retract' the shoes (via the adjuster port on
the back of the hub) so I can get the drum off and inspect.

In the mean time, anybody have any ideas/suggestions?

-I'm pretty sure that there is not a leak in the system (I do not
notice any brake fluid loss or see any signs of leak).

- Are the brake lines metal all the way, or are there rubber sections
that could have 'aneruisms' (bulges) ?

- Re johnin's comment about a new m/c possibly being defective, that's
depressing...

-The emergency brake does work (it holds the car on a hill). Does that
tell you anything about the state of adjustment of the rear drum
brakes? Or is that irelevant becase the e brake uses a cable and not
the hydraulics ? ...

Thanks for any comments.

eddie wrote:
> Aaarrrrggghhhh.
> I bought a new master cylinder (from honda dealer) and installed it
> and bled all four brake lines. The problem (see original post) is
> still there! Gasp.
>
> I've read on other posts and in my Chilton's book that a rear (drum)
> brake problem can cause a long/soft brake pedal. I tried to inspect
> the rear brakes, but I could not remove the drum. I was able to break
> the drum free and it moves about an eighth of an inch, but will not
> come off. I assume that I have a groove in the drum and the brake
> shoe is in there, preventing the drum from coming off. I am going to
> buy a brake spoon and try and 'retract' the shoes (via the adjuster
> port on the back of the hub) so I can get the drum off and inspect.
>
> In the mean time, anybody have any ideas/suggestions?
>
> -I'm pretty sure that there is not a leak in the system (I do not
> notice any brake fluid loss or see any signs of leak).
>
> - Are the brake lines metal all the way, or are there rubber sections
> that could have 'aneruisms' (bulges) ?
>
> - Re johnin's comment about a new m/c possibly being defective, that's
> depressing...
>
> -The emergency brake does work (it holds the car on a hill). Does
> that tell you anything about the state of adjustment of the rear drum
> brakes? Or is that irelevant becase the e brake uses a cable and not
> the hydraulics ? ...
>

You certainly need to back off the rear shoes with the tool as the wear
inside
the drum leaves a ridge at the outside edge which impedes the drum from
coming free and off. This edge ridge can be rusty, too, which again
increases the apparent depth a fraction and can be sharp so watch you
don't get a cut. Keep working the drum if it is reluctant to release.

The handbrake is a different mechanism but make sure the lever is fully
down (off), for the same reason.


--
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Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

eddie wrote:
> Aaarrrrggghhhh.
> I bought a new master cylinder (from honda dealer) and installed it and
> bled all four brake lines. The problem (see original post) is still
> there! Gasp.

but how well did you bleed them?

>
> I've read on other posts and in my Chilton's book that a rear (drum)
> brake problem can cause a long/soft brake pedal. I tried to inspect
> the rear brakes, but I could not remove the drum. I was able to break
> the drum free and it moves about an eighth of an inch, but will not
> come off. I assume that I have a groove in the drum and the brake shoe
> is in there, preventing the drum from coming off.

keep pulling. you'll be looking at a new drum and shoes anyway by the
sound of it, so don't fret too much about damaging stuff. replace the
shoes with a kit that gives you all new springs, retainers, etc.
manchesterhonda.com sells them.

> I am going to buy a
> brake spoon and try and 'retract' the shoes (via the adjuster port on
> the back of the hub) so I can get the drum off and inspect.
>
> In the mean time, anybody have any ideas/suggestions?
>
> -I'm pretty sure that there is not a leak in the system (I do not
> notice any brake fluid loss or see any signs of leak).

if the pedal goes to the floor, it's either air lock, defective flex
hose [really dangerous] or something like a cracked caliper. drum
adjustment is not usually a problem.

>
> - Are the brake lines metal all the way, or are there rubber sections
> that could have 'aneruisms' (bulges) ?
>
> - Re johnin's comment about a new m/c possibly being defective, that's
> depressing...
>
> -The emergency brake does work (it holds the car on a hill). Does that
> tell you anything about the state of adjustment of the rear drum
> brakes?

how many clicks on the lever?

> Or is that irelevant becase the e brake uses a cable and not
> the hydraulics ? ...

no, it's relevant because they both use the same adjuster inside the
drum. it's possible the adjuster's locked and isn't doing its job, but
that would definitely affect the hand brake.

> Thanks for any comments.
>

Thanks for the comments Graham and Jim.

Re bleeding. I thought that I fully bled the lines because the new
fluid was noticeably clearer than the old fluid, and I flushed until I
saw clear fluid. Flushing some more is worth trying though.

Last night I was able to get the drum off of the right rear wheel
(after using the adjuster to retract the shoes a little bit). I didn't
really do anything, it was basically exploratory surgery to make sure
that the shoes/drum were not trashed. The shoes seemed to have plenty
of material left on them (~1/8 inch. I need to check to see what the
lower wear limit is). I couldn't break the left drum free and I didn't
have 8mm bolts handy.

(After my mucking around with the adjusters last night), the e-brake
takes about 5 clicks to engage it to where I normally do. I'm in a
flat parking lot now, so I cannot do a good test. If you pull really
hard (harder than I normally do), you can get 7 clicks.

I've sort of thrown in the towel. I've made an appointment with a
local honda shop to look at the brakes and the clutch (separate story).
I'll try bleeding again one last time tonight. I'll let you know
what, if anything, they find with the brakes.

"eddie" <edwardbyrne@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1148321120.087799.166250@j55g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

> Aaarrrrggghhhh.
> I bought a new master cylinder (from honda dealer) and installed it and
> bled all four brake lines. The problem (see original post) is still
> there! Gasp.
>
> I've read on other posts and in my Chilton's book that a rear (drum)
> brake problem can cause a long/soft brake pedal. I tried to inspect
> the rear brakes, but I could not remove the drum. I was able to break
> the drum free and it moves about an eighth of an inch, but will not
> come off. I assume that I have a groove in the drum and the brake shoe
> is in there, preventing the drum from coming off. I am going to buy a
> brake spoon and try and 'retract' the shoes (via the adjuster port on
> the back of the hub) so I can get the drum off and inspect.



You've got a rust ridge all right. You can push the adjuster out of the way
with a bent coat hanger, then just use a screwdriver to back the star wheel
all the way in. I've not yet encountered a normally-worn, unseized drum
that would not come off when the adjuster was retracted all the way.



>
> In the mean time, anybody have any ideas/suggestions?
>
> -I'm pretty sure that there is not a leak in the system (I do not
> notice any brake fluid loss or see any signs of leak).
>
> - Are the brake lines metal all the way, or are there rubber sections
> that could have 'aneruisms' (bulges) ?



Not aneurisms, no. But sometimes they leak where they join the steel parts.
And thre steel sections can corrode to the point of leakage where they
attach to their brackets.

In any case, *if* you had a leak, the master cylinder level would be going
down, which it appears it's not.



>
> - Re johnin's comment about a new m/c possibly being defective, that's
> depressing...



And quite unlikely.



>
> -The emergency brake does work (it holds the car on a hill). Does that
> tell you anything about the state of adjustment of the rear drum
> brakes?



They could be adjusted well enough to hold the car, but not quite enough to
make a high pedal.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/