Honda Car Forum

mpwilliams wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:a5GdnV-wCtg-9rrZnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>mpwilliams wrote:
>>
>>>If you want your Honda Accord's oil pan to last as long as the engine
>>>it's bolted to, make a firm commitment, now, to always have your oil
>>>changed at a Honda dealership. The cost is the same - sometimes less -
>>>than at the quick oil change stores, and the Honda dealer will always
>>>change the 5 cent zinc washer on the drain plug, something the oil change
>>>stores will never do.
>>
>>it's aluminum, not zinc. and in my experience, dealer oil changes are
>>delegated to the least skilled person in the shop who is just as capable
>>of screwing it up as monkeylube.
>
>
> You're correct, the drain plug washer is aluminum, not zinc. Be that as it
> may, the point is that it will always be (and should always be) replaced
> with every oil change at a Honda dealer, and it will never be changed in a
> million years if you get your oil changes at a 'monkeylube', as you call
> them.
>
>
>>>Your Honda Accord has an aluminum alloy oil pan with a steel drain plug,
>>
>>most oil pans are steel - to withstand road debris damage.
>
>
> We're not talking about most oil pans ... we're talking about the oil pans
> that come as factory equipment on a new Honda Accord - in particular, a 2006
> Honda Accord - and they are manufactured from aluminum alloy.

honda lists both guy. check for yourself. i'll take steel for the
reason stated.

>
>
>>>and the zinc washer, which is quite deformable compared to the aluminum
>>>alloy, protects the drain hole threads from stretching (and, eventually,
>>>stripping) when the plug is snugged up; when the threads have stripped,
>>>that's it for your $400+ oil pan.
>>
>>steel is $37.73 retail.
>
>
> Your point?
>
>
>>>The false economy and dubious convenience of quick oil change stores
>>>retired the original oil pan on my 1988 Honda Accord at about 60,000
>>>miles (changing oil every 5,000 miles);
>>
>>dealers rarely use honda oil, so what's the point?
>
>
> My point is that it's the failure of the quick lube shops to replace the
> aluminum drain plug washer with each oil change (or ever in a million oil
> changes) that causes the drain-hole threads on a Honda Accord's aluminum
> alloy oil pan to become stretched and, eventually, stripped ... the nature
> of the motor oil provided may be important from a number of other points of
> view, but it is completely and totally irrelevant to the problem of stripped
> drain-hole threads on aluminum alloy oil pans.
>
>
>>>the oil pan on my mother's 1995 Honda Accord was done in at 40,000 miles
>>>(roughly the same change frequency).
>>
>>all that says is that it was messed up, and that can happen anywhere.
>
>
> Theoretically, yes, it could happen anywhere. As a practical matter,
> however, it doesn't happen just anywhere ... it happens with regularity
> among Honda Accord owners who have made a habit of frequenting the quick
> lube establishments, and it almost never happens among Honda Accord owners
> who never have their oil changed anywhere but the service department at
> Honda dealership.
>
>
>>i've watched dealers do it may times. the crx i got at 305k miles was on
>>its original oil pan and had never been serviced at a dealer its whole
>>life - i had the full service history. according to your dictum, the pan
>>should have been replaced many times. it all comes down to having it done
>>right, and that is a function of training & skill of the technician, /not/
>>the name on the door of the shop.
>
>
> Right, and the Honda service technicians are trained to change the aluminum
> drain plug gasket with each and every oil change, while the 'technicians' at
> quick lube establishments are *not* trained to change the aluminum drain
> plug gasket ever in a million years. It's just that simple.
>
not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any good.
i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter gasket
in place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on my civic
once. he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil sprayed
literally 3' out of the engine compartment. so i say again, there's no
guarantee that a honda tech is better than any other on the dumb as
rocks stuff like this.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:S76dnaz9puw8HLXZnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> mpwilliams wrote:
>> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>> news:a5GdnV-wCtg-9rrZnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>
>>>mpwilliams wrote:
>>>
>>>>If you want your Honda Accord's oil pan to last as long as the engine
>>>>it's bolted to, make a firm commitment, now, to always have your oil
>>>>changed at a Honda dealership. The cost is the same - sometimes less -
>>>>than at the quick oil change stores, and the Honda dealer will always
>>>>change the 5 cent zinc washer on the drain plug, something the oil
>>>>change stores will never do.
>>>
>>>it's aluminum, not zinc. and in my experience, dealer oil changes are
>>>delegated to the least skilled person in the shop who is just as capable
>>>of screwing it up as monkeylube.
>>
>>
>> You're correct, the drain plug washer is aluminum, not zinc. Be that as
>> it may, the point is that it will always be (and should always be)
>> replaced with every oil change at a Honda dealer, and it will never be
>> changed in a million years if you get your oil changes at a 'monkeylube',
>> as you call them.
>>
>>
>>>>Your Honda Accord has an aluminum alloy oil pan with a steel drain plug,
>>>
>>>most oil pans are steel - to withstand road debris damage.
>>
>>
>> We're not talking about most oil pans ... we're talking about the oil
>> pans that come as factory equipment on a new Honda Accord - in
>> particular, a 2006 Honda Accord - and they are manufactured from aluminum
>> alloy.
>
> honda lists both guy. check for yourself. i'll take steel for the reason
> stated.
>
In 1996, for my 1988 Accord LXi, the repair at my dealer broke down as
follows:

Oil pan, complete 138.00
Gasket, oil pan 13.32
Labor 135.20
Oil/filter/drain plug washer/labor 20.86
Total $307.38 + tax

My recent oil change, at the same dealer, was $20.04, which includes the
36-cent aluminum washer that they always replace when they change the oil
.... the same 36-cent washer that was never changed by the quick lube
establishments right up to the day that one of their 'technicians' came in
to the customer waiting room to tell me that "when I tighten the drain plug
it just goes around and around."

Your view is that trading at the quick lube establishments is a well-managed
risk for an Accord owner, and my experience tells me that this risk isn't
very well managed at all, if for no other reason than the rhetorical
quasi-fact that 99.9 percent of all Honda Accord owners don't have a shop
manual for their vehicle and have no idea that the aluminum drain plug
washer needs to be replaced with every oil change, or ever for that matter.

>>
>>
>>>>and the zinc washer, which is quite deformable compared to the aluminum
>>>>alloy, protects the drain hole threads from stretching (and, eventually,
>>>>stripping) when the plug is snugged up; when the threads have stripped,
>>>>that's it for your $400+ oil pan.
>>>
>>>steel is $37.73 retail.
>>
>>
>> Your point?
>>
>>
>>>>The false economy and dubious convenience of quick oil change stores
>>>>retired the original oil pan on my 1988 Honda Accord at about 60,000
>>>>miles (changing oil every 5,000 miles);
>>>
>>>dealers rarely use honda oil, so what's the point?
>>
>>
>> My point is that it's the failure of the quick lube shops to replace the
>> aluminum drain plug washer with each oil change (or ever in a million oil
>> changes) that causes the drain-hole threads on a Honda Accord's aluminum
>> alloy oil pan to become stretched and, eventually, stripped ... the
>> nature of the motor oil provided may be important from a number of other
>> points of view, but it is completely and totally irrelevant to the
>> problem of stripped drain-hole threads on aluminum alloy oil pans.
>>
>>
>>>>the oil pan on my mother's 1995 Honda Accord was done in at 40,000 miles
>>>>(roughly the same change frequency).
>>>
>>>all that says is that it was messed up, and that can happen anywhere.
>>
>>
>> Theoretically, yes, it could happen anywhere. As a practical matter,
>> however, it doesn't happen just anywhere ... it happens with regularity
>> among Honda Accord owners who have made a habit of frequenting the quick
>> lube establishments, and it almost never happens among Honda Accord
>> owners who never have their oil changed anywhere but the service
>> department at Honda dealership.
>>
>>
>>>i've watched dealers do it may times. the crx i got at 305k miles was on
>>>its original oil pan and had never been serviced at a dealer its whole
>>>life - i had the full service history. according to your dictum, the pan
>>>should have been replaced many times. it all comes down to having it
>>>done right, and that is a function of training & skill of the technician,
>>>/not/ the name on the door of the shop.
>>
>>
>> Right, and the Honda service technicians are trained to change the
>> aluminum drain plug gasket with each and every oil change, while the
>> 'technicians' at quick lube establishments are *not* trained to change
>> the aluminum drain plug gasket ever in a million years. It's just that
>> simple.
> not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any good.
> i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter gasket in
> place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on my civic once.
> he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil sprayed literally 3' out
> of the engine compartment. so i say again, there's no guarantee that a
> honda tech is better than any other on the dumb as rocks stuff like this.

> not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any good.
> i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter gasket in
> place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on my civic once.
> he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil sprayed literally 3' out
> of the engine compartment. so i say again, there's no guarantee that a
> honda tech is better than any other on the dumb as rocks stuff like this.

No matter where you go, there is always a chance they will screw it up.

I took my new car to the dealer for its first oil change. When it was all
done, I started the engine. A lot of smoke came out. A senior mechanic came
out and he said some oil got spilled on the engine. He flushed the oil off
the engine but I still had to smell the oil burning for the next 30 miles. I
also found out later they put 5 quarts of oil in there when it only needs
41/2.

Needless to say, I was very surprised. I am not a mechanic. I have only done
oil change myself a few times before and never had any problems. So I am
going to do my own maintanence from now on.

They recommend changing the drain plug gasket every time to avoid leaking. I
just don't buy it. There must be design flaw if an old gasket can damage the
oil pan.

Bob Jones wrote:
>>not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any good.
>>i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter gasket in
>>place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on my civic once.
>>he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil sprayed literally 3' out
>>of the engine compartment. so i say again, there's no guarantee that a
>>honda tech is better than any other on the dumb as rocks stuff like this.
>
>
> No matter where you go, there is always a chance they will screw it up.
>
> I took my new car to the dealer for its first oil change. When it was all
> done, I started the engine. A lot of smoke came out. A senior mechanic came
> out and he said some oil got spilled on the engine. He flushed the oil off
> the engine but I still had to smell the oil burning for the next 30 miles. I
> also found out later they put 5 quarts of oil in there when it only needs
> 41/2.
>
> Needless to say, I was very surprised. I am not a mechanic. I have only done
> oil change myself a few times before and never had any problems. So I am
> going to do my own maintanence from now on.
>
> They recommend changing the drain plug gasket every time to avoid leaking. I
> just don't buy it. There must be design flaw if an old gasket can damage the
> oil pan.
>
it's not the gasket that's causing damage, it's over-torque of the drain
plug stripping threads out of the pan. there's only so much a
manufacturer can do to idiot-proof something so basic. personally, i've
never stripped a drain plug and i only replace the gasket every 3-5
times i drain, but hey, i'm reckless, inexperienced and unqualified, so
i'm cavalier about such risks.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:AOadnfQyj-cKILXZRVn-rQ@speakeasy.net...
> Bob Jones wrote:
>>>not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any good.
>>>i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter gasket in
>>>place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on my civic once.
>>>he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil sprayed literally 3' out
>>>of the engine compartment. so i say again, there's no guarantee that a
>>>honda tech is better than any other on the dumb as rocks stuff like this.
>>
>>
>> No matter where you go, there is always a chance they will screw it up.
>>
>> I took my new car to the dealer for its first oil change. When it was all
>> done, I started the engine. A lot of smoke came out. A senior mechanic
>> came out and he said some oil got spilled on the engine. He flushed the
>> oil off the engine but I still had to smell the oil burning for the next
>> 30 miles. I also found out later they put 5 quarts of oil in there when
>> it only needs 41/2.
>>
>> Needless to say, I was very surprised. I am not a mechanic. I have only
>> done oil change myself a few times before and never had any problems. So
>> I am going to do my own maintanence from now on.
>>
>> They recommend changing the drain plug gasket every time to avoid
>> leaking. I just don't buy it. There must be design flaw if an old gasket
>> can damage the oil pan.
> it's not the gasket that's causing damage, it's over-torque of the drain
> plug stripping threads out of the pan. there's only so much a
> manufacturer can do to idiot-proof something so basic. personally, i've
> never stripped a drain plug and i only replace the gasket every 3-5 times
> i drain, but hey, i'm reckless, inexperienced and unqualified, so i'm
> cavalier about such risks.

How is a new gasket going to avoid damage if you over-torque. There is
really no need to change it that often. A ton of high mileage cars on the
road probably never had the gaskets changed.

"Bob Jones" <email@me.not> wrote in message
news:yG3Wf.48944$2O6.18664@newssvr12.news.prodigy. com...
>
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:AOadnfQyj-cKILXZRVn-rQ@speakeasy.net...
>> Bob Jones wrote:
>>>>not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any good.
>>>>i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter gasket in
>>>>place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on my civic once.
>>>>he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil sprayed literally 3'
>>>>out of the engine compartment. so i say again, there's no guarantee
>>>>that a honda tech is better than any other on the dumb as rocks stuff
>>>>like this.
>>>
>>>
>>> No matter where you go, there is always a chance they will screw it up.
>>>
>>> I took my new car to the dealer for its first oil change. When it was
>>> all done, I started the engine. A lot of smoke came out. A senior
>>> mechanic came out and he said some oil got spilled on the engine. He
>>> flushed the oil off the engine but I still had to smell the oil burning
>>> for the next 30 miles. I also found out later they put 5 quarts of oil
>>> in there when it only needs 41/2.
>>>
>>> Needless to say, I was very surprised. I am not a mechanic. I have only
>>> done oil change myself a few times before and never had any problems. So
>>> I am going to do my own maintanence from now on.
>>>
>>> They recommend changing the drain plug gasket every time to avoid
>>> leaking. I just don't buy it. There must be design flaw if an old gasket
>>> can damage the oil pan.
>> it's not the gasket that's causing damage, it's over-torque of the drain
>> plug stripping threads out of the pan. there's only so much a
>> manufacturer can do to idiot-proof something so basic. personally, i've
>> never stripped a drain plug and i only replace the gasket every 3-5 times
>> i drain, but hey, i'm reckless, inexperienced and unqualified, so i'm
>> cavalier about such risks.
>
> How is a new gasket going to avoid damage if you over-torque. There is
> really no need to change it that often. A ton of high mileage cars on the
> road probably never had the gaskets changed.

The drain plug gasket is aluminum, with a Young's modulus (modulus of
elasticity, the slope of the linear portion of the stress/strain curve,
derived from standardized materials testing) is lower than either the steel
drain plug or the aluminum alloy oil pan (which includes the drain-hole
threads), so overtorquing results in permanent deformation of the drain plug
gasket before permanent deformation (stretching) of the drain-hole threads
occurs. The need for a regular change of the drain plug gasket arises from
the fact that the material from which it is made strain-hardens as it is
permanently (inelastically) deformed; if the drain-plug gasket remains
unchanged, the drain-hole threads quickly become the most easily-deformed
element in the system (drain hole, drain plug and drain-plug gasket). This
is basic engineering mechanics and materials science.

"mpwilliams" <m.p.williams@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:GleWf.9022$Bj7.8329@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> "Bob Jones" <email@me.not> wrote in message
> news:yG3Wf.48944$2O6.18664@newssvr12.news.prodigy. com...
>>
>> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>> news:AOadnfQyj-cKILXZRVn-rQ@speakeasy.net...
>>> Bob Jones wrote:
>>>>>not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any
>>>>>good. i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter
>>>>>gasket in place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on my
>>>>>civic once. he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil sprayed
>>>>>literally 3' out of the engine compartment. so i say again, there's no
>>>>>guarantee that a honda tech is better than any other on the dumb as
>>>>>rocks stuff like this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No matter where you go, there is always a chance they will screw it up.
>>>>
>>>> I took my new car to the dealer for its first oil change. When it was
>>>> all done, I started the engine. A lot of smoke came out. A senior
>>>> mechanic came out and he said some oil got spilled on the engine. He
>>>> flushed the oil off the engine but I still had to smell the oil burning
>>>> for the next 30 miles. I also found out later they put 5 quarts of oil
>>>> in there when it only needs 41/2.
>>>>
>>>> Needless to say, I was very surprised. I am not a mechanic. I have only
>>>> done oil change myself a few times before and never had any problems.
>>>> So I am going to do my own maintanence from now on.
>>>>
>>>> They recommend changing the drain plug gasket every time to avoid
>>>> leaking. I just don't buy it. There must be design flaw if an old
>>>> gasket can damage the oil pan.
>>> it's not the gasket that's causing damage, it's over-torque of the drain
>>> plug stripping threads out of the pan. there's only so much a
>>> manufacturer can do to idiot-proof something so basic. personally, i've
>>> never stripped a drain plug and i only replace the gasket every 3-5
>>> times i drain, but hey, i'm reckless, inexperienced and unqualified, so
>>> i'm cavalier about such risks.
>>
>> How is a new gasket going to avoid damage if you over-torque. There is
>> really no need to change it that often. A ton of high mileage cars on the
>> road probably never had the gaskets changed.
>
> The drain plug gasket is aluminum, with a Young's modulus (modulus of
> elasticity, the slope of the linear portion of the stress/strain curve,
> derived from standardized materials testing) is lower than either the
> steel drain plug or the aluminum alloy oil pan (which includes the
> drain-hole threads), so overtorquing results in permanent deformation of
> the drain plug gasket before permanent deformation (stretching) of the
> drain-hole threads occurs. The need for a regular change of the drain plug
> gasket arises from the fact that the material from which it is made
> strain-hardens as it is permanently (inelastically) deformed; if the
> drain-plug gasket remains unchanged, the drain-hole threads quickly become
> the most easily-deformed element in the system (drain hole, drain plug and
> drain-plug gasket). This is basic engineering mechanics and materials
> science.
>

Sure, it will deform if over-torqued. There is no argument about that, but
it is really not the point. The question is whether the gasket should be
replaced at every oil change regardless of the condition. Of course, I am no
scientist, but experience told me that it is unnecessary.

"Bob Jones" <email@me.not> wrote in message
news:nSkWf.6585$4L1.4941@newssvr11.news.prodigy.co m...
>
> "mpwilliams" <m.p.williams@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:GleWf.9022$Bj7.8329@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
>> "Bob Jones" <email@me.not> wrote in message
>> news:yG3Wf.48944$2O6.18664@newssvr12.news.prodigy. com...
>>>
>>> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:AOadnfQyj-cKILXZRVn-rQ@speakeasy.net...
>>>> Bob Jones wrote:
>>>>>>not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any
>>>>>>good. i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter
>>>>>>gasket in place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on my
>>>>>>civic once. he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil sprayed
>>>>>>literally 3' out of the engine compartment. so i say again, there's
>>>>>>no guarantee that a honda tech is better than any other on the dumb as
>>>>>>rocks stuff like this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No matter where you go, there is always a chance they will screw it
>>>>> up.
>>>>>
>>>>> I took my new car to the dealer for its first oil change. When it was
>>>>> all done, I started the engine. A lot of smoke came out. A senior
>>>>> mechanic came out and he said some oil got spilled on the engine. He
>>>>> flushed the oil off the engine but I still had to smell the oil
>>>>> burning for the next 30 miles. I also found out later they put 5
>>>>> quarts of oil in there when it only needs 41/2.
>>>>>
>>>>> Needless to say, I was very surprised. I am not a mechanic. I have
>>>>> only done oil change myself a few times before and never had any
>>>>> problems. So I am going to do my own maintanence from now on.
>>>>>
>>>>> They recommend changing the drain plug gasket every time to avoid
>>>>> leaking. I just don't buy it. There must be design flaw if an old
>>>>> gasket can damage the oil pan.
>>>> it's not the gasket that's causing damage, it's over-torque of the
>>>> drain plug stripping threads out of the pan. there's only so much a
>>>> manufacturer can do to idiot-proof something so basic. personally,
>>>> i've never stripped a drain plug and i only replace the gasket every
>>>> 3-5 times i drain, but hey, i'm reckless, inexperienced and
>>>> unqualified, so i'm cavalier about such risks.
>>>
>>> How is a new gasket going to avoid damage if you over-torque. There is
>>> really no need to change it that often. A ton of high mileage cars on
>>> the road probably never had the gaskets changed.
>>
>> The drain plug gasket is aluminum, with a Young's modulus (modulus of
>> elasticity, the slope of the linear portion of the stress/strain curve,
>> derived from standardized materials testing) is lower than either the
>> steel drain plug or the aluminum alloy oil pan (which includes the
>> drain-hole threads), so overtorquing results in permanent deformation of
>> the drain plug gasket before permanent deformation (stretching) of the
>> drain-hole threads occurs. The need for a regular change of the drain
>> plug gasket arises from the fact that the material from which it is made
>> strain-hardens as it is permanently (inelastically) deformed; if the
>> drain-plug gasket remains unchanged, the drain-hole threads quickly
>> become the most easily-deformed element in the system (drain hole, drain
>> plug and drain-plug gasket). This is basic engineering mechanics and
>> materials science.
>>
>
> Sure, it will deform if over-torqued. There is no argument about that, but
> it is really not the point. The question is whether the gasket should be
> replaced at every oil change regardless of the condition. Of course, I am
> no scientist, but experience told me that it is unnecessary.

Experience, by its nature, is subjective ... your experience is what you
think (or imagine) it is.

"mpwilliams" <m.p.williams@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:OwnWf.7947$x94.5381@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> "Bob Jones" <email@me.not> wrote in message
> news:nSkWf.6585$4L1.4941@newssvr11.news.prodigy.co m...
>>
>> "mpwilliams" <m.p.williams@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:GleWf.9022$Bj7.8329@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
>>> "Bob Jones" <email@me.not> wrote in message
>>> news:yG3Wf.48944$2O6.18664@newssvr12.news.prodigy. com...
>>>>
>>>> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:AOadnfQyj-cKILXZRVn-rQ@speakeasy.net...
>>>>> Bob Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>not true guy. it depends on where you go, and whether they're any
>>>>>>>good. i've watched a "trained" honda technician leave the oil filter
>>>>>>>gasket in place, then screw a new filter and gasket on top of it on
>>>>>>>my civic once. he looked most "confused" when a fountain of oil
>>>>>>>sprayed literally 3' out of the engine compartment. so i say again,
>>>>>>>there's no guarantee that a honda tech is better than any other on
>>>>>>>the dumb as rocks stuff like this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No matter where you go, there is always a chance they will screw it
>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I took my new car to the dealer for its first oil change. When it was
>>>>>> all done, I started the engine. A lot of smoke came out. A senior
>>>>>> mechanic came out and he said some oil got spilled on the engine. He
>>>>>> flushed the oil off the engine but I still had to smell the oil
>>>>>> burning for the next 30 miles. I also found out later they put 5
>>>>>> quarts of oil in there when it only needs 41/2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Needless to say, I was very surprised. I am not a mechanic. I have
>>>>>> only done oil change myself a few times before and never had any
>>>>>> problems. So I am going to do my own maintanence from now on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They recommend changing the drain plug gasket every time to avoid
>>>>>> leaking. I just don't buy it. There must be design flaw if an old
>>>>>> gasket can damage the oil pan.
>>>>> it's not the gasket that's causing damage, it's over-torque of the
>>>>> drain plug stripping threads out of the pan. there's only so much a
>>>>> manufacturer can do to idiot-proof something so basic. personally,
>>>>> i've never stripped a drain plug and i only replace the gasket every
>>>>> 3-5 times i drain, but hey, i'm reckless, inexperienced and
>>>>> unqualified, so i'm cavalier about such risks.
>>>>
>>>> How is a new gasket going to avoid damage if you over-torque. There is
>>>> really no need to change it that often. A ton of high mileage cars on
>>>> the road probably never had the gaskets changed.
>>>
>>> The drain plug gasket is aluminum, with a Young's modulus (modulus of
>>> elasticity, the slope of the linear portion of the stress/strain curve,
>>> derived from standardized materials testing) is lower than either the
>>> steel drain plug or the aluminum alloy oil pan (which includes the
>>> drain-hole threads), so overtorquing results in permanent deformation of
>>> the drain plug gasket before permanent deformation (stretching) of the
>>> drain-hole threads occurs. The need for a regular change of the drain
>>> plug gasket arises from the fact that the material from which it is made
>>> strain-hardens as it is permanently (inelastically) deformed; if the
>>> drain-plug gasket remains unchanged, the drain-hole threads quickly
>>> become the most easily-deformed element in the system (drain hole, drain
>>> plug and drain-plug gasket). This is basic engineering mechanics and
>>> materials science.
>>>
>>
>> Sure, it will deform if over-torqued. There is no argument about that,
>> but it is really not the point. The question is whether the gasket should
>> be replaced at every oil change regardless of the condition. Of course, I
>> am no scientist, but experience told me that it is unnecessary.
>
> Experience, by its nature, is subjective ... your experience is what you
> think (or imagine) it is.
>

No, that's real world experience. It is more real and objective than any
theory.

mpwilliams wrote:
> your $400+ oil pan. The false economy and dubious convenience of quick oil
> change stores retired the original oil pan on my 1988 Honda Accord at about
> 60,000 miles (changing oil every 5,000 miles); the oil pan on my mother's
> 1995 Honda Accord was done in at 40,000 miles (roughly the same change
> frequency).

I don't believe your hypothesis that it was because the washer wasn't
changed.

Answer this one: did you watch any of those oil change jobs? Did they,
by chance, use a pneumatic impact wrench to install the bolt instead of
torquing it by hand?