Honda Car Forum

"ThomasE" <lester12@yahoo.com> wrote
> And next time I'll know better how to test for spark.
> Being a physicist I
> should have figured out that the spark is more difficult
> under compression
> rather than at atmospheric pressure. It wasn't until it
> was pointed out
> that it clicked.because sparking in a gas is the
> ionization of gas
> molecules. When a charged particle inside the gas (an
> electron I assume)
> gains enough speed in the electric field between the
> electrodes to hit
> another gas molecule and make it ionioze then there's a
> chain reaction
> which leads to the spark, much like lightning during a
> storm. So as the
> air gets thinner the gas molecules are further apart and
> the charged
> particle travels more distance and thus gains more speed,
> on average,
> before colliding with another gas molecule. The more
> violent the collision
> the more likely that the gas molecule that is hit will
> ionize giving out
> another electron. Now there's two electrons being
> accelerated which now
> hit two new molecules etc. and thus the chain reaction.


All good in theory. I'm not sure the differences are all
that significant for the tests about which we are talking in
this particular troubleshooting scenario.

ThomasE wrote:
> I wanted to thank you all for all your replies. Your suggestions are
> helping me get closer to the problem and learn about other potential
> problems, like the fact that even if my main relay is ok for now I should
> sooner or later expect problems from it on a CRX that old, unless I
> resolder it which I may do anyway in the next few days.
>
> And next time I'll know better how to test for spark. Being a physicist I
> should have figured out that the spark is more difficult under compression
> rather than at atmospheric pressure. It wasn't until it was pointed out
> that it clicked...because sparking in a gas is the ionization of gas
> molecules. When a charged particle inside the gas (an electron I assume)
> gains enough speed in the electric field between the electrodes to hit
> another gas molecule and make it ionioze then there's a chain reaction
> which leads to the spark, much like lightning during a storm. So as the
> air gets thinner the gas molecules are further apart and the charged
> particle travels more distance and thus gains more speed, on average,
> before colliding with another gas molecule. The more violent the collision
> the more likely that the gas molecule that is hit will ionize giving out
> another electron. Now there's two electrons being accelerated which now
> hit two new molecules etc. and thus the chain reaction...
>
> Thanks again to all of you. I'm sure I'll repost this no start puzzle
> sooner or later...
>
> -ThomasE-

I work in a similar discipline and find that it is often easier to not
think about certain problems in the same terms you would at work - it
tends to over complicate things.
That's actually the reason why I enjoy working on cars - it takes
totally different skill set, other than of course some decent trouble
shooting skills.

I strongly suspect your problem is a sensor someplace that the ECU
mal-adjusts for.
We'll all be very curious to see what it ends up being.

Good luck!
Remco

ThomasE wrote:
>
> The CRX started again this evening after sitting for about 5 hours.
>
> The injector flooding theory makes sense except that when I took out all 4
> plugs they did not seem fouled. But then again I have not done this many
> times so I don’t know how the spark plugs are supposed to look.

==============================

Flooded doesn't mean WET. It just means there's WAY more fuel than there
is supposed to be for the amount of available air. If your engine had
enough fuel in it to wet the spark plugs, you'd crack a piston head when
you spun the engine over. Gas (or water) don't compress well, so
something else has to 'give'. :-(

Even if your dribbling injector only leaked three ounces of fuel into
the engine overnight, you'll need to add 45 ounces (by weight) of air to
obtain a correct fuel/air mixture that will ignite cleanly. Hollywood
pyro effects people create huge explosions with just a few gallons of
gasoline mixed with a huge amount of air. . . . One pound of gas, 15
pounds of air. (air doesn't weigh much)

When you hold the pedal to the floor on a (non-running) Honda, the
computer TURNS OFF the injectors completely, to allow fresh air to be
mixed with the excess fuel. The owner's manual is quite specific about
how to start a flooded Honda. Hondas also shut off the injectors while
coasting, at least on many of the automatic models. My CR-V does it and
it's weird to watch the tach drop near the stalling point before
snapping back up.

'Curly'

"'Curly Q. Links'" <motsco__@interbaun.com> wrote

> Flooded doesn't mean WET. It just means there's WAY more fuel than there
> is supposed to be for the amount of available air. If your engine had
> enough fuel in it to wet the spark plugs, you'd crack a piston head when
> you spun the engine over. Gas (or water) don't compress well, so
> something else has to 'give'. :-(
> Even if your dribbling injector only leaked three ounces of fuel into
> the engine overnight, you'll need to add 45 ounces (by weight) of air to
> obtain a correct fuel/air mixture that will ignite cleanly. Hollywood
> pyro effects people create huge explosions with just a few gallons of
> gasoline mixed with a huge amount of air. . . . One pound of gas, 15
> pounds of air. (air doesn't weigh much)
> When you hold the pedal to the floor on a (non-running) Honda, the
> computer TURNS OFF the injectors completely, to allow fresh air to be
> mixed with the excess fuel. The owner's manual is quite specific about
> how to start a flooded Honda. Hondas also shut off the injectors while
> coasting, at least on many of the automatic models. My CR-V does it and
> it's weird to watch the tach drop near the stalling point before
> snapping back up.

When you hold the pedal to the floor on a (non-running) Honda, the
computer may turn off the injectors on some car but not on others. I'd
discovered that a 92 Civic or older models won't shut off the fuel injectors
if you press the accelerator pedal all the way down and hold it there while
cranking it for up to 18 seconds. You can try this while having someone listen
to the clicks on the fuel injectors. The flooded 92 Civic can be cleared
manually using a mechanics' trick, took less time and it started right up.

Here's a quote from the 96 Civic owners manual: "If the engine fails to
start, press the accelerator pedal all the way down and hold it there
while starting to clear flooding. Return to step 5 if the engine does not
start." Step 5 is nothing but "hold the pedal halfway."

This trick is probably nothing more than mixing more air into the cylinders,
a slow way of dealing with a flood, unless someone can confirm it by
listening to the clicks on the fuel injectors at WOT.

ThomasE wrote:
>
> My ’89 Honda CRX Si won’t start.
> -Engine turns but no start so battery and starter are ok.
> -No computer codes. Computer is operational but it gives no trouble codes
> so computer does not detect any malfunction.
> -Fuel Pressure is ok - I checked fuel pressure with fuel gauge meter, at
> 37psi within specification.
> -Spark seems ok. I hooked spare spark plug to each cylinder and there is
> spark (not a strong spark but I don’t know how strong spark is supposed to
> be).
>
> -Had left car in garage for 2 weeks before this problem started.
>
> I’ve had an occasional no start intermittent problem with this car for the
> past couple of years but now the problem is permanent, which I’m almost
> happy for since perhaps I can now find out what the problem is. The
> intermittent problem drove me crazy (the car would not start about once a
> month) and I never found out what the problem was/is.
>
> Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks.

=====================================

Didn't we solve this one a few days ago? If it's injected, hold the
pedal to the floor and crank it for up to 15 seconds at a time.
Dribbling injector bleeds all pressure from fuel rail and floods engine
overnight and it needs lots of air to start. It's in the owner's manual
(for injected Hondas). Use injector cleaner or gasohol to cure injector
problem.

SEARCH would find this one, but you'd need the clue 'flooded'.

'Curly'