Honda Car Forum

Remco wrote:
>>>>>Now that you've gotten it to start, it occurred to me that I've seen
something like this on a Subaru once where the thermosensor was
defective and adjusted the mixture such that the car just would not
start.
Subarus get into this mode after starting repeatedly where the mixture
goes to a mid range for debug purposes (one can also short two pins
together).<<<<<<

ThomasE:

Indeed, when this no start problem appeared last year as a rare
intermittent problem I was also having an intermittent code 06 “Bad
temperature sensor code” but the two did not seem related. The 06 code
would cause the check engine light to go on and would have some effect on
the idle (idle was somewhat erratic) and gas consumption which makes sense
because if the computer cannot tell the engine temperature it cannot
regulate well the fuel mixture. I tested the temperature sensor resistance
with engine cold and engine hot and it was within spec. I also tested for
electrical continuity and did not find anything wrong. However after
getting the 06 code 3-4 times in the span of 2 months and suspecting it
may have something to do with the no-start problem I decided to replace
the thermo sensor and indeed the 06 code never appeared again. At that
time, when I got the no-start problem, I did try to disconnect the thermo
sensor just to make sure that the computer got the message that the thermo
sensor was bad and thus force the computer into default operation and at
least give me a mixture that would start the car but the car again would
not start. Once the engine started, disconnecting the thermo sensor
resulted in an 06 code so the computer seemed to be detecting it
correctly.

In any case the 06 code problem went away since I replaced the thermo
sensor about 9 months ago. Besides, in this morning’s tests, if the
mixture were too low wouldn’t the engine do something at least for a
couple of seconds once I sprayed starter fluid into the intake manifold?
Also this intermittent no start problem does not seem to be related to
whether the engine is hot or cold. The no start problem has manifested
itself say 6-8 times total, sometimes with warm engine sometimes with cold
engine sometimes with warm weather sometimes with cold, I cannot find any
correlation whatsoever and I consider the 06 temp sensor problem cured
since I replaced the thermo sensor 9 months ago. There are no codes
related to the no-start problem any more.

ThomasE wrote:
>
> UPDATE
> Thank you very much for your support. Sometimes just knowing that somebody
> else is just as puzzled gives you energy to keep investigating…
> Today the car did finally start but unfortunately without revealing any
> clues as to what the problem is, so I’m sure that this no start problem
> will reappear sooner or later.
>
> Here is what I did today Monday in the order I did it:
>
<SNIP>

The puff of smoke proves it was totally flooded. You've got an injector
that's dripping overnight. It empties the contents of your pressurized
fuel rail into the engine. Holding the pedal to the floor and cranking
it is the (only easy) way to get it going. The cure is to change the
injector or to get it un-gunked with Techron or a few tanks of good
Gasohol.

Your owner's manual tells you how to start a flooded Honda.
Pedal-to-the-metal and crank it.

You can use google groups to confirm.

'Curly'

Burt wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
>
>
>>no it's not. because it's harder to spark a small gap than a larger one
>>at atmosphere, you may not see a spark, even if the system is ok.
>
>
> Anyone with near 20/20 vision can see the spark on a plug. To bend
> the plug only ask for trouble. Each time it bends it has the potential to break.
> If you don't see the spark then there is an ignition problem. Better to not
> bend it.

listen, idiot, sparking is a function of air pressure and voltage. at
atmospheric pressure, the gap is too small to reliably spark, for
reasons i'll spare you. [look it up if you dare]. /so/, as i stated in
the part you so helpfully snipped, take an /old/ plug and bend the
electrode. then you get a big fat [visible] spark if the ignition is
functioning properly. that's why ignorant automotive amateurs like
snap-on make tools like this:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....re&dir=catalog

>
>
>>not on a honda and trying to use a normal plug lead it's not. the
>>connector is too recessed and the hole too small for the lead to fit.
>>if you're /not/ using a plug lead, there's too much chance of leakage to
>>spark reliably, particularly if you're trying to spark on a plug without
>>the gap opened to work at atmospheric pressure.
>
>
> Actually, trick requires just a paper clip... no plugs needed.

and you hold onto it while testing too, right?

>
> If you have difficulty checking for a dead plug at the distributor like the
> way I do it on Accords, Civic then the timing light is your best friend.
> For other's reference: Hook timing light to plug wire, no light = dead plug.
> One dead plug = flooding. Flooding = no start.
>
>
>>besides, if the distributor cap or distributor arm are faulty
>>you need to test "downstream" of those components.
>
>
> You need to test both "downstream" and "upstream."
>
duh. wtf bother testing upstream if you don't need to? if it works
downstream first, the upstream test is entirely pointless and your time
is wasted.

but then again, i'm wasting my time arguing with an idiot, so who am i
to talk.

you're killfiled. bye.

'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
> ThomasE wrote:
>
>>UPDATE
>>Thank you very much for your support. Sometimes just knowing that somebody
>>else is just as puzzled gives you energy to keep investigating…
>>Today the car did finally start but unfortunately without revealing any
>>clues as to what the problem is, so I’m sure that this no start problem
>>will reappear sooner or later.
>>
>>Here is what I did today Monday in the order I did it:
>>
>
> <SNIP>
>
> The puff of smoke proves it was totally flooded. You've got an injector
> that's dripping overnight. It empties the contents of your pressurized
> fuel rail into the engine. Holding the pedal to the floor and cranking
> it is the (only easy) way to get it going. The cure is to change the
> injector or to get it un-gunked with Techron or a few tanks of good
> Gasohol.
>
> Your owner's manual tells you how to start a flooded Honda.
> Pedal-to-the-metal and crank it.
>
> You can use google groups to confirm.
>
> 'Curly'

and check the oil for gas dilution smell!

ThomasE wrote:
> Remco wrote:
> >>>>>Now that you've gotten it to start, it occurred to me that I've seen
> something like this on a Subaru once where the thermosensor was
> defective and adjusted the mixture such that the car just would not
> start.
> Subarus get into this mode after starting repeatedly where the mixture
> goes to a mid range for debug purposes (one can also short two pins
> together).<<<<<<
>
> ThomasE:
>
> Indeed, when this no start problem appeared last year as a rare
> intermittent problem I was also having an intermittent code 06 "Bad
> temperature sensor code" but the two did not seem related. The 06 code
> would cause the check engine light to go on and would have some effect on
> the idle (idle was somewhat erratic) and gas consumption which makes sense
> because if the computer cannot tell the engine temperature it cannot
> regulate well the fuel mixture. I tested the temperature sensor resistance
> with engine cold and engine hot and it was within spec. I also tested for
> electrical continuity and did not find anything wrong. However after
> getting the 06 code 3-4 times in the span of 2 months and suspecting it
> may have something to do with the no-start problem I decided to replace
> the thermo sensor and indeed the 06 code never appeared again. At that
> time, when I got the no-start problem, I did try to disconnect the thermo
> sensor just to make sure that the computer got the message that the thermo
> sensor was bad and thus force the computer into default operation and at
> least give me a mixture that would start the car but the car again would
> not start. Once the engine started, disconnecting the thermo sensor
> resulted in an 06 code so the computer seemed to be detecting it
> correctly.
>
> In any case the 06 code problem went away since I replaced the thermo
> sensor about 9 months ago. Besides, in this morning's tests, if the
> mixture were too low wouldn't the engine do something at least for a
> couple of seconds once I sprayed starter fluid into the intake manifold?
> Also this intermittent no start problem does not seem to be related to
> whether the engine is hot or cold. The no start problem has manifested
> itself say 6-8 times total, sometimes with warm engine sometimes with cold
> engine sometimes with warm weather sometimes with cold, I cannot find any
> correlation whatsoever and I consider the 06 temp sensor problem cured
> since I replaced the thermo sensor 9 months ago. There are no codes
> related to the no-start problem any more.

Not sure if the car would attempt to start.. The subie definitely did
not want to start so it definitely did something to the air/fuel
mixture or timing.
It wasn't so much that it needed to cool down for the problem to
re-occur, but almost seemed time related as if the ECU had a timer
built in. Of course, this is a subaru - totally different car.

Well, thought I'd bring it up as a possible, just in case.
Carry on..

The CRX started again this evening after sitting for about 5 hours.

The injector flooding theory makes sense except that when I took out all 4
plugs they did not seem fouled. But then again I have not done this many
times so I don’t know how the spark plugs are supposed to look.

I’ll make the injector flooding theory the most likely one and wait for
the next occurrence. So next time it happens I’ll keep a set of 4 new
spark plugs and when the car does not start again I’ll put in the 4 new
plugs and it should start. I’m thinking that no matter how flooded it is
placing 4 new dry spark plugs should start the combustion that burns off
the flooding (or is it not that the case?).

Also if it is indeed flooding I must have more than one injector that is
leaking since the engine should be able to start even on 3 cylinders (am I
right on this one?)

I wanted to thank you all for all your replies. Your suggestions are
helping me get closer to the problem and learn about other potential
problems, like the fact that even if my main relay is ok for now I should
sooner or later expect problems from it on a CRX that old, unless I
resolder it which I may do anyway in the next few days.

And next time I’ll know better how to test for spark. Being a physicist I
should have figured out that the spark is more difficult under compression
rather than at atmospheric pressure. It wasn’t until it was pointed out
that it clicked…because sparking in a gas is the ionization of gas
molecules. When a charged particle inside the gas (an electron I assume)
gains enough speed in the electric field between the electrodes to hit
another gas molecule and make it ionioze then there’s a chain reaction
which leads to the spark, much like lightning during a storm. So as the
air gets thinner the gas molecules are further apart and the charged
particle travels more distance and thus gains more speed, on average,
before colliding with another gas molecule. The more violent the collision
the more likely that the gas molecule that is hit will ionize giving out
another electron. Now there’s two electrons being accelerated which now
hit two new molecules etc. and thus the chain reaction…

Thanks again to all of you. I’m sure I’ll repost this no start puzzle
sooner or later…

-ThomasE-

ThomasE wrote:
> The CRX started again this evening after sitting for about 5 hours.
>
> The injector flooding theory makes sense except that when I took out all 4
> plugs they did not seem fouled. But then again I have not done this many
> times so I don’t know how the spark plugs are supposed to look.

They'll just look "wet". Pour a little gas into a small open container
and dip the end of a plug in it - that's how plugs will look in a
"flooded" engine.

> I’ll make the injector flooding theory the most likely one and wait for
> the next occurrence. So next time it happens I’ll keep a set of 4 new
> spark plugs and when the car does not start again I’ll put in the 4 new
> plugs and it should start. I’m thinking that no matter how flooded it is
> placing 4 new dry spark plugs should start the combustion that burns off
> the flooding (or is it not that the case?).

Not necessarily - part of the problem is the excess gas pooling in the
cylinder/on the piston crown, so there's a chance of the clean plugs
getting re-fouled just as quickly. The problem is not entirely with the
plugs getting wet, but there's also FAR too rich an air/fuel mixture in
the combustion chamber.

Gasoline (or anything else, for that matter) won't burn unless there's
the proper proportion of oxidizer present (air, in this case) - if you
drop a lit match into a bucket of gasoline, it will likely just go out,
as once it's in the liquid, there's no air present: it's the vapors
coming off the surface of the gas that actually burn.

Cranking with the pedal floored allows larger amounts of air into the
cylinders, helping evaporate the excess fuel more quickly, but it's
still not an immediate fix, just helps accelerate the process. Cranking
a bit with the plugs out may help clear out the excess fuel as well, but
be careful not to produce any open flame near the front fo the engine
(NO SMOKING!).



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"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> listen, idiot, sparking is a function of air pressure and voltage. at
> atmospheric pressure, the gap is too small to reliably spark, for
> reasons i'll spare you. [look it up if you dare]. /so/, as i stated in
> the part you so helpfully snipped, take an /old/ plug and bend the
> electrode. then you get a big fat [visible] spark if the ignition is
> functioning properly. that's why ignorant automotive amateurs like
> snap-on make tools like this:
> http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/20100/20066.JPG

I'd never denied that it sparks better with a larger gap at atmosphere.
The point is, there is no use bending it when there is spark no
matter how small the gap.

> and you hold onto it while testing too, right?

Ah... it seems you're not a pro enough but will have to rely or copy
a $12 jig to determine the coil's voltage output.

> duh. wtf bother testing upstream if you don't need to? if it works
> downstream first, the upstream test is entirely pointless and your time
> is wasted.

This is a pointless argument. Either you mistype or lost it. A faulty
distributor cap, arm doesn't require only a test downstream of the bad
part to determine if the arm, cap is at fault. This is another point that says
you don't know how to troubleshoot electrical circuits. You're somewhat
killfiled.

> but then again, i'm wasting my time arguing with an idiot, so who am i
> to talk. you're killfiled. bye.

Apparently, you'd just ran out of useful thought.

I see,
Now that you mentioned the flooding theory could explain also why on some
instances when I had the no-start problem leaving the car alone for a day
or so fixed the problem and the CRX starts as if nothing happened, perhaps
the gas flooding dissipates?...