Honda Car Forum

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> er, ok, so when your *intermittent* fault happens to be /not/ evident
> when you test, and faulty when you're trying to start, then what? fact:
> for this age civic/crx, you're well inside 3 sigma on relay faults.

It doesn't work that way. It fails on or off when the car sits for that
long. Especially, parking overnight the solder joint normally restores
itself. In fact, the OP hears the 2 second after the ignition is on.

ThomasE wrote:
> Oh the ignition wires are pretty old and they are OEM. But could all 4
> wires fail all of a sudden?
>
> I'll do some more methodical testing tomorrow...

Why not just spray some starter fluid into the air intake to see if it
wants to start?
If it then wants to start, you know it most likely is not air or
ignition..

Three quick checks I'd do on old OEM wires: (1) Run the car
in the dark and look for sparks coming from the wires. (2)
Run the car at idle with the hood up. Spray the wires with
misting water. Listen for changes in the idle speed. That's
a tip off (according to Tegger's site) that they need
replacement. Seems reasonable to me. (3) Check the wire
resistance. Should be under 15,000 ohms each.

Old wires are said to be harder on the ignition coil, too.
So it pays to replace them (with new OEM ones).

You sound plenty expert in your automotive knowledge. I hope
you nail this one, soon! Should be good.

"ThomasE" <lester12@yahoo.com> wrote
> Oh the ignition wires are pretty old and they are OEM. But
> could all 4
> wires fail all of a sudden?
>
> I'll do some more methodical testing tomorrow...
>
>
>

Elle wrote:
> Three quick checks I'd do on old OEM wires: (1) Run the car
> in the dark and look for sparks coming from the wires. (2)
> Run the car at idle with the hood up.

That's a good idea, except the car won't run...


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"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>> Three quick checks I'd do on old OEM wires: (1) Run the
>> car in the dark and look for sparks coming from the
>> wires. (2) Run the car at idle with the hood up.
>
> That's a good idea, except the car won't run...


Oops. :-)

UPDATE
Thank you very much for your support. Sometimes just knowing that somebody
else is just as puzzled gives you energy to keep investigating…
Today the car did finally start but unfortunately without revealing any
clues as to what the problem is, so I’m sure that this no start problem
will reappear sooner or later.

Here is what I did today Monday in the order I did it:

1. First I tried to crank the engine without doing anything, just in case

Cranked engine - No start.

2. Then CLEANED SPARK PLUGS: I took out all 4 spark plugs and cleaned them
with wire brush and adjusted the gap (the gap had increased to about 1.2mm,
I reset it to 0.9mm). The plugs did not seem fouled with oil or gasoline
although there was a faint smell of gasoline on them, normal I assume
although I have not tried to debug such problems before. Plug electrode
appearance looked normal to me just a light gray very few deposits which I
removed with wire brush. Cleaned the wire ends and spark plug hole and
reinstalled the spark plugs.
Cranked engine – NO START – perhaps an occasional very weak firing as
usual.

3. Then SPRAYED STARTER FLUID INTO INTAKE MANIFOLD: Took out the air hose
at the intake manifold, opened the throttle butterfly to make sure the
started fluid would go in, and then sprayed starter fluid directly into
the intake manifold for 3-4 seconds. I could not see inside the intake
manifold but I opened the throttle butterfly and inserted a screwdriver
into it, to make sure there were no other obstructions, all was fine.
Cranked engine - NO START - perhaps an occasional very weak firing as
usual.

4. REPEATED SPRAYING STARTER FLUID INTO INTAKE for another 3-4 seconds
just to make sure,
Cranked engine - NO START -perhaps an occasional very weak firing as
usual.

5. CLEANED THE DISTRIBUTOR: Since I had already checked for spark a couple
of days ago, I removed the plastic black distributor housing, it did not
seem dirty inside but cleaned it anyway with some alcohol.
Cranked engine - NO START -perhaps an occasional very weak firing as
usual.

6. INSISTED CRANKING: In frustration, since I was occasionally hearing
weak firing I insisted cranking the engine. Whenever I fully depressed the
accelerator there seemed to be more firing. After two 20second cranks it
seemed that the firing had increased. The firing seemed smooth (that is,
it did not seem that just a few cylinders were firing it just seemed like
weak uniform firing but I could be wrong). At the end of the third 20
second crank it started firing more and I kept cranking more until the
engine finally RELUCTANTLY STARTED somewhat erratically first for about 5
seconds and then normal. Quite a bit of smoke came out of the exhaust but
that could have been the started fluid. Once started the high idle was
normal, engine noise normal, revving up normal, no smoke from exhaust. I
let it idle for a couple of minutes and then turned it off.
I waited 1 minute, re-cranked and it started normally.
Turned engine off. Waited 15 minutes cranked- started normally.
Took car for test drive all was normal. Accelerated at full throttle going
35mph on a steep hill power was normal no missing or other signs of fuel
starvation.
Turned engine off, waited 30 minutes cranked – started normally.
Turned engine off, waited 1 hour cranked – started normally.

With the engine idling I did the SPRAY BOTTLE TEST sprayed spark plug
wires and distributor until they were drenched, no change in idling or
other engine behavior.

With the engine idling I slowly removed each one of the spark plug wires
until the cylinder I was unplugging stopped firing. I noticed that the
spark must be STRONG because it seemed I had to remove the wire by about ½
inch from the spark plug before any one cylinder stopped firing (although
the engine was able to kept idling on 3 cylinders).

The reluctant slow way in which the engine started and the smoke from the
exhaust would point to flooding/fouling but, as I described in step 2, I
had taken out all 4 spark plugs and they seemed clean, besides I cleaned
them thoroughly in step 2 and it still would not start.

Meanwhile throughout this process I could always hear the fuel pump
running for 2 seconds as soon as I turned the ignition.
As I had said in my original posting I had already tested the fuel
pressure last Thursday and I had also tested for spark.

Soooo… I am puzzled. I’m sure the problem will return sooner or later and
I’m running out of diagnostic tests. You are probably starting to think
that I am making all this up to puzzle you…
I will take out the main relay and re-solder it, seems like an easy job,
not much to loose by doing it just in case…

"ThomasE" <lester12@yahoo.com> wrote
> With the engine idling I slowly removed each one of the
> spark plug wires
> until the cylinder I was unplugging stopped firing. I
> noticed that the
> spark must be STRONG because it seemed I had to remove the
> wire by about ½
> inch from the spark plug before any one cylinder stopped
> firing (although
> the engine was able to kept idling on 3 cylinders).

For future reference, doesn't this risk overloading the
ignition coil or something?

See
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...tml#checkspark
.. Plus some guy a few months ago did something like you
describe and burned out his ignition coil.

> Soooo. I am puzzled. I'm sure the problem will return
> sooner or later and
> I'm running out of diagnostic tests. You are probably
> starting to think
> that I am making all this up to puzzle you.
> I will take out the main relay and re-solder it, seems
> like an easy job,
> not much to loose by doing it just in case.

Right, I'm not confident it's the main relay, but if you've
really got the time, eliminate it. Unfortunately it's a bit
of a bear to get out. Most folks say leave the casing
bracketed to the wall and just slide out the guts.

Certainly seems like the symptoms point to some odd flooding
condition. Did you dump a bottle of Chevron Techron into the
near empty fuel tank (and then fill the tank) yet?

Be interesting to hear whether the car starts tomorrow...

Yes, I was a little concerned about the coil but compared to this
frustrating problem changing the coil did not seem that bad. Besides, as I
tried this on the first cylinder I noticed that even when the wire is
pulled away from the spark, the spark was still discharging from the wire
end to the engine (inside the spark pug hole). The bad thing would be if
the spark had absolutely nowhere to discharge and discharged through the
coil insulation inside the coil. Had that been the case I would have had
second thoughts about repeating the procedure on all cylinders.

I understand. You ensured you had a ground. That's the key.

"ThomasE" <lester12@yahoo.com> wrote
> Yes, I was a little concerned about the coil but compared
> to this
> frustrating problem changing the coil did not seem that
> bad. Besides, as I
> tried this on the first cylinder I noticed that even when
> the wire is
> pulled away from the spark, the spark was still
> discharging from the wire
> end to the engine (inside the spark pug hole). The bad
> thing would be if
> the spark had absolutely nowhere to discharge and
> discharged through the
> coil insulation inside the coil. Had that been the case I
> would have had
> second thoughts about repeating the procedure on all
> cylinders.
>

ThomasE wrote:
> Yes, I was a little concerned about the coil but compared to this
> frustrating problem changing the coil did not seem that bad. Besides, as I
> tried this on the first cylinder I noticed that even when the wire is
> pulled away from the spark, the spark was still discharging from the wire
> end to the engine (inside the spark pug hole). The bad thing would be if
> the spark had absolutely nowhere to discharge and discharged through the
> coil insulation inside the coil. Had that been the case I would have had
> second thoughts about repeating the procedure on all cylinders.

Now that you've gotten it to start, it occurred to me that I've seen
something like this on a Subaru once where the thermosensor was
defective and adjusted the mixture such that the car just would not
start.
Subarus get into this mode after starting repeatedly where the mixture
goes to a mid range for debug purposes (one can also short two pins
together).

It does the exact same thing you are describing: not starting for a
long time and then suddenly starting. After the car cools down, the
problem would re-appear.

This information was just "for what it is worth" - Subies are quite
different than Hondas but just for giggles check the thermosensor...

Remco