Honda Car Forum

In article <Z9SdnVhOPo5l447ZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@speakeasy.net> , jim beam
<nospam@example.net> wrote:

> honda man wrote:
> > n8zdogg wrote:
> >
> >>Had the exact same thing - check your belt tension. Mine was fine after
> >>replacing the belt.
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>n8zdogg
> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>n8zdogg's Profile:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=406520
> >>View this thread:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=528410
> >>
> >>http://www.automotiveforums.com
> >
> >
> > Well, I got around to looking at the cause of the ticking noise, and
> > found out what was happening. The timing belt teeth were hitting the
> > plastic "Timing Belt Back Cover" (behind the cam gear) and the "Timing
> > Belt Front Upper Cover" rear bolt sleeves causing the ticking or rattle
> > noise! Seems the timing belt between the water pump and the cam is too
> > loose causing it to make contact with the bolt sleeve. The timing belt
> > between the cam and the crank is tight, but seems too loose between the
> > water pump gear and the cam...and I guess it is given the fact that it
> > is making contact with the plastic bolt sleeve!
> >
> > Soooo, I thought simple fix, just readjust the timing belt, which I did
> > do, tried multiple times, (set engine to TDC, loosen adjusting bolt,
> > rotate engine counter clockwise three cam teeth, and tighten adjusting
> > bolt) belt still seems to loose. Next I tried "helping" the tensioner
> > tighten the belt by pulling up on the timing belt tensioner with a
> > "customized wire hook" but when I pulled up on the rear timing belt
> > tensioner, it seemed as though it was as high as it would go, and would
> > not pull any higher. I even tried to push or rotate the water pump
> > gear clockwise to aid the tensioner in pulling the belt tight! Again,
> > it seemed like the tensioner was as high as it would go, and still
> > could not seem to get the belt between the water pump and the cam any
> > tighter. I performed all of this with only the upper timing belt
> > cover, and valve cover removed. With a flash light, I looked down near
> > the spring on the rear tensioner, and it looks like the tensioner is
> > pulled all the way up, as if it is not able to get any higher, or pull
> > the belt tighter. The "wing" part of the tensioner bracket that allows
> > you to lock it in place by inserting a lower cover bolt, is pulled up
> > beyond the bolt hole on the block, as if it is as high as it can go.
> > Hopefully you know what I mean, from my description.
> >
> > At this point, not being able to get the belt any tighter, I decided to
> > trim back the upper cover sleeve with a razor blade about 1/8 - 3/16 of
> > an inch, so the belt will not make contact with it. Was still able to
> > insert the bolt without any trouble. Started the engine, and the
> > ticking is gone, however, I think the belt is still too loose. How can
> > I get this belt tighter? Seems like it is not loose enough to jump a
> > tooth on the cam, but think it needs to be tighter.
> >
> > It's a new honda timing belt, can't be too long...
> >
> > Any help here?
> >
> > Thanks all!
> >
>
> what a /huge/ pita! sounds like you have been given the wrong belt.
> the correct belt /definitely/ tightens ok, and the idler pulley is /not/
> at the end of its slot when tight. even if the part number on the box
> is ok, it doesn't mean the belt inside was correct - factory mixup and
> all that... can you check the number on the belt while it's on the car?
> also, double-check the model number on the engine in case it was
> swapped out before you got it.
>
> one more thing, when you have everything back to normal, don't "help"
> the belt tighten. the correct procedure of tensioning the run between
> the cam & the crank, then allowing the tensioning spring to do its work
> gives exactly the correct belt tension - and there will be no slop. any
> more than that and the belt can fail prematurely, water pump bearings
> fail, etc. etc.

Excellent post. Keep up the great work.

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jim beam wrote:
> honda man wrote:
> > n8zdogg wrote:
> >
> >>Had the exact same thing - check your belt tension. Mine was fine after
> >>replacing the belt.
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>n8zdogg
> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>n8zdogg's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=406520
> >>View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=528410
> >>
> >>http://www.automotiveforums.com
> >
> >
> > Well, I got around to looking at the cause of the ticking noise, and
> > found out what was happening. The timing belt teeth were hitting the
> > plastic "Timing Belt Back Cover" (behind the cam gear) and the "Timing
> > Belt Front Upper Cover" rear bolt sleeves causing the ticking or rattle
> > noise! Seems the timing belt between the water pump and the cam is too
> > loose causing it to make contact with the bolt sleeve. The timing belt
> > between the cam and the crank is tight, but seems too loose between the
> > water pump gear and the cam...and I guess it is given the fact that it
> > is making contact with the plastic bolt sleeve!
> >
> > Soooo, I thought simple fix, just readjust the timing belt, which I did
> > do, tried multiple times, (set engine to TDC, loosen adjusting bolt,
> > rotate engine counter clockwise three cam teeth, and tighten adjusting
> > bolt) belt still seems to loose. Next I tried "helping" the tensioner
> > tighten the belt by pulling up on the timing belt tensioner with a
> > "customized wire hook" but when I pulled up on the rear timing belt
> > tensioner, it seemed as though it was as high as it would go, and would
> > not pull any higher. I even tried to push or rotate the water pump
> > gear clockwise to aid the tensioner in pulling the belt tight! Again,
> > it seemed like the tensioner was as high as it would go, and still
> > could not seem to get the belt between the water pump and the cam any
> > tighter. I performed all of this with only the upper timing belt
> > cover, and valve cover removed. With a flash light, I looked down near
> > the spring on the rear tensioner, and it looks like the tensioner is
> > pulled all the way up, as if it is not able to get any higher, or pull
> > the belt tighter. The "wing" part of the tensioner bracket that allows
> > you to lock it in place by inserting a lower cover bolt, is pulled up
> > beyond the bolt hole on the block, as if it is as high as it can go.
> > Hopefully you know what I mean, from my description.
> >
> > At this point, not being able to get the belt any tighter, I decided to
> > trim back the upper cover sleeve with a razor blade about 1/8 - 3/16 of
> > an inch, so the belt will not make contact with it. Was still able to
> > insert the bolt without any trouble. Started the engine, and the
> > ticking is gone, however, I think the belt is still too loose. How can
> > I get this belt tighter? Seems like it is not loose enough to jump a
> > tooth on the cam, but think it needs to be tighter.
> >
> > It's a new honda timing belt, can't be too long...
> >
> > Any help here?
> >
> > Thanks all!
> >
>
> what a /huge/ pita! sounds like you have been given the wrong belt.
> the correct belt /definitely/ tightens ok, and the idler pulley is /not/
> at the end of its slot when tight. even if the part number on the box
> is ok, it doesn't mean the belt inside was correct - factory mixup and
> all that... can you check the number on the belt while it's on the car?
> also, double-check the model number on the engine in case it was
> swapped out before you got it.
>
> one more thing, when you have everything back to normal, don't "help"
> the belt tighten. the correct procedure of tensioning the run between
> the cam & the crank, then allowing the tensioning spring to do its work
> gives exactly the correct belt tension - and there will be no slop. any
> more than that and the belt can fail prematurely, water pump bearings
> fail, etc. etc.

Yes, it has not been fun...I checked the number on the belt before I
installed it, and it matched what was specified. Engine I believe is
original. Really stumped on this one. Should the idler tensioner
pully slot be somewhere in the center of the slot? I think the bottom
of the slot is higher than the temporary locking hole in the block.
Can only view with a flash light with the upper timing belt cover
removed. I'm not really looking forward to taking it all apart again
to get a better look. Couple other things crossed my mind, is the
water pump gear the same size...it looked to be the same size. I'm
grasping to come up with a cause of why the belt is loose. How much
wiggle should there be in the belt between the cam and the water pump?
Also, I'm able to slide the belt about 3/4" off the center of the cam,
kind of scary. The ticking has gone away due to my trimming, I think.
Runs fine, and I may just leave it alone... Thanks for the suggestions
Jim.

honda man wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>honda man wrote:
>>
>>>n8zdogg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Had the exact same thing - check your belt tension. Mine was fine after
>>>>replacing the belt.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>n8zdogg
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>n8zdogg's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=406520
>>>>View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=528410
>>>>
>>>>http://www.automotiveforums.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, I got around to looking at the cause of the ticking noise, and
>>>found out what was happening. The timing belt teeth were hitting the
>>>plastic "Timing Belt Back Cover" (behind the cam gear) and the "Timing
>>>Belt Front Upper Cover" rear bolt sleeves causing the ticking or rattle
>>>noise! Seems the timing belt between the water pump and the cam is too
>>>loose causing it to make contact with the bolt sleeve. The timing belt
>>>between the cam and the crank is tight, but seems too loose between the
>>>water pump gear and the cam...and I guess it is given the fact that it
>>>is making contact with the plastic bolt sleeve!
>>>
>>>Soooo, I thought simple fix, just readjust the timing belt, which I did
>>>do, tried multiple times, (set engine to TDC, loosen adjusting bolt,
>>>rotate engine counter clockwise three cam teeth, and tighten adjusting
>>>bolt) belt still seems to loose. Next I tried "helping" the tensioner
>>>tighten the belt by pulling up on the timing belt tensioner with a
>>>"customized wire hook" but when I pulled up on the rear timing belt
>>>tensioner, it seemed as though it was as high as it would go, and would
>>>not pull any higher. I even tried to push or rotate the water pump
>>>gear clockwise to aid the tensioner in pulling the belt tight! Again,
>>>it seemed like the tensioner was as high as it would go, and still
>>>could not seem to get the belt between the water pump and the cam any
>>>tighter. I performed all of this with only the upper timing belt
>>>cover, and valve cover removed. With a flash light, I looked down near
>>>the spring on the rear tensioner, and it looks like the tensioner is
>>>pulled all the way up, as if it is not able to get any higher, or pull
>>>the belt tighter. The "wing" part of the tensioner bracket that allows
>>>you to lock it in place by inserting a lower cover bolt, is pulled up
>>>beyond the bolt hole on the block, as if it is as high as it can go.
>>>Hopefully you know what I mean, from my description.
>>>
>>>At this point, not being able to get the belt any tighter, I decided to
>>>trim back the upper cover sleeve with a razor blade about 1/8 - 3/16 of
>>>an inch, so the belt will not make contact with it. Was still able to
>>>insert the bolt without any trouble. Started the engine, and the
>>>ticking is gone, however, I think the belt is still too loose. How can
>>>I get this belt tighter? Seems like it is not loose enough to jump a
>>>tooth on the cam, but think it needs to be tighter.
>>>
>>>It's a new honda timing belt, can't be too long...
>>>
>>>Any help here?
>>>
>>>Thanks all!
>>>
>>
>>what a /huge/ pita! sounds like you have been given the wrong belt.
>>the correct belt /definitely/ tightens ok, and the idler pulley is /not/
>>at the end of its slot when tight. even if the part number on the box
>>is ok, it doesn't mean the belt inside was correct - factory mixup and
>>all that... can you check the number on the belt while it's on the car?
>> also, double-check the model number on the engine in case it was
>>swapped out before you got it.
>>
>>one more thing, when you have everything back to normal, don't "help"
>>the belt tighten. the correct procedure of tensioning the run between
>>the cam & the crank, then allowing the tensioning spring to do its work
>>gives exactly the correct belt tension - and there will be no slop. any
>>more than that and the belt can fail prematurely, water pump bearings
>>fail, etc. etc.
>
>
> Yes, it has not been fun...I checked the number on the belt before I
> installed it, and it matched what was specified. Engine I believe is
> original. Really stumped on this one. Should the idler tensioner
> pully slot be somewhere in the center of the slot?

not center, but not topped out either.

> I think the bottom
> of the slot is higher than the temporary locking hole in the block.
> Can only view with a flash light with the upper timing belt cover
> removed. I'm not really looking forward to taking it all apart again
> to get a better look. Couple other things crossed my mind, is the
> water pump gear the same size...it looked to be the same size.

should be.

> I'm
> grasping to come up with a cause of why the belt is loose. How much
> wiggle should there be in the belt between the cam and the water pump?

should be able to get about an inch from side to side on the longest
run. not more.

> Also, I'm able to slide the belt about 3/4" off the center of the cam,
> kind of scary.

that's not necessarily a problem. the belt should not be "tight", but
not sloppy. the only belt tension is from that idler wheel spring
before the bolt is tightened.

> The ticking has gone away due to my trimming, I think.
> Runs fine, and I may just leave it alone... Thanks for the suggestions
> Jim.
>
could it be something to do with the two tensioner pulleys? they're
different sizes. could they possibly be switched? not sure how, but we
all make mistakes.

you could try taking some pics with the covers removed and posting them
on flickr.com. sometimes a second pair of eyes...