Honda Car Forum

Hi all,

Previous posts I have put up will bring you through the 'saga' i have had
with my sisters car. Short story is that the t-belt snapped. It was
then
taken to a honda dealership. They just put it back together (650 bucks
later)
said no compression on cylinder 3. Obviously, the incident caused valve
damage on cylinder 3 (all 4 valves bent), so I took the car to my house,
pulled the head off, replaced them and put it back together.

Well its all back together now, and it is running well, except at initial
startup. It takes 10-15 seconds for it to figure things out, then it goes
up
to about 1500 rpms until warmed up, and drops down to the correct rpm.

I told my sisters husband that this is probably due to there being air in
the
cooling system. I imagine that if the car has been sitting overnight,
that
the air in the system would 'burp' up to the top of the cooling system.
Pretty much right at the top is the coolant temp sensor, which would not
be
immersed due to the air in the system. After 10-15 seconds though, the
water
pump will have primed the system, and the sensor would now be immersed,
allowing the correct idle to be attained.

Is this a safe assumption or am I talking outta my a.s?

Other items of note:

Initially, the car had been put back together (without any work on the
valves)
at a honda dealership. 2 items got destroyed when the t-belt snapped;
the
CKF sensor and the lower timing cover. Well there are already belt slap
marks on the inside of the timing cover due to incorrect tension setting
on
honda's part.

Also, the timing belt was off by 1 tooth from the dealership.

I'm pretty pissed at the dealerfor their complete lack of knowledge
on how to tell if there is valve damage without actually just putting it
back
together and hearing a cylinder miss.

Thoughts?

t

"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote
> Well its all back together now, and it is running well,
except at initial
> startup. It takes 10-15 seconds for it to figure things
out, then it goes
> up
> to about 1500 rpms until warmed up, and drops down to the
correct rpm.
>
> I told my sisters husband that this is probably due to
there being air in
> the
> cooling system.

I don't quite see a problem here. How long does it take to
get warmed up?

Maybe there's a bit more detail you could provide. Fifteen
hundred RPM when stopped with the engine running, but just
started from cold, doesn't strike me as too odd; maybe a bit
high.

The RPM should go down to normal idle within ten minutes or
less, I would think. At least, that's how it is with my 91
Civic. Other Hondas shouldn't take much longer.

> I imagine that if the car has been sitting overnight,
> that
> the air in the system would 'burp' up to the top of the
cooling system.
> Pretty much right at the top is the coolant temp sensor,
which would not
> be
> immersed due to the air in the system. After 10-15
seconds though, the
> water
> pump will have primed the system, and the sensor would now
be immersed,
> allowing the correct idle to be attained.
>
> Is this a safe assumption or am I talking outta my a.s?

I'm not wild about the particulars. For example, as the
coolant temperature rises, the air is more readily released
for accumulation at high spots in the system. As it cools,
it should be less likely to come out of solution.

Another regular here was talking about this the other day,
arguing that the water pump will move air out of the system.
To me, that's a very suspect argument. Liquid pumps are
designed to move essentially incompressible fluids, like
drinking water. Most don't do so well when there are gases
in the liquid system as well. That is, full flow won't occur
with gases in the system. To properly "prime" a liquid
pumping system means to remove the air and other gases from
it, usually by applying a liquid head to the system somehow
and giving the air someplace to go.

I'm not quite convinced that by /just/ running the water
pump all the air in a car's cooling system will find its way
up towards the radiator cap, through the overflow tube, and
out the reservoir vent. Ya gotta heat the system up, too,
for one thing, to abet the release of the gases from
solution. For another, ya gotta provide a vent. With the
radiator cap on, and so the system pressurized, those gases
can't really thoroughly bubble out. Hence the purging
procedure has one beginning with a cold engine (and heater
control on max hot), removing the radiator cap from the fill
neck, leaving the cap off, then starting the car. Any air
slowly bubbles out the fill neck. Ya wait until the fan
comes on twice, which means the coolant is about as hot as
it can get, too. Then top off the system, screw on the cap,
and go. Check reservoir level an hour later, a day later,
then a few days, then weeks.

If you're at all worried, why not just do a proper purge,
letting that fan come on twice, and see what happens?

> Other items of note:
>
> Initially, the car had been put back together (without any
work on the
> valves)
> at a honda dealership. 2 items got destroyed when the
t-belt snapped;
> the
> CKF sensor and the lower timing cover. Well there are
already belt slap
> marks on the inside of the timing cover due to incorrect
tension setting
> on
> honda's part.
>
> Also, the timing belt was off by 1 tooth from the
dealership.
>
> I'm pretty pissed at the dealerfor their complete lack of
knowledge
> on how to tell if there is valve damage without actually
just putting it
> back
> together and hearing a cylinder miss.
>
> Thoughts?

Dealer services and Honda specialized independent shops have
disappointed me on technical repair matters at least three
out of some five times. And yes, I was pissed, though I
chalk some of this up to their being under so much pressure
to move cars in and out. They are not necessarily the most
knowledgeable folks. Ya either pay through the nose (same
deal with doctors and now some lawyers, afaic; they don't
know what the heck they're talking about much of the time
and bluff like the best, charging you for every darn
worthless minute to boot) or learn to fix your car yourself.

Sorry for the lack of clarity....

When started from cold, it takes the car 10-15 seconds to find the 'high
idle' which should be at around 1500rpms. Instead, it sits at about
600rpms and almost stalls.

After 10-15 seconds, it seems to be fine.

t

Haven't seen that particular type of idle problem here
before. I thought idle problems tended to be high ones.
Still, I'd purge this car's cooling system and also be in
the troubleshooting chart under "Emission Controls" in my
Chilton's. It has a chart dedicated to "Idle Control"
problems. For what you describe for a 92-95 Civic, it points
to the problem most likely being the Fast Idle Thermo Valve.
Which may be cooled by the cooling system... Then it points
to the Idle Air Control Valve, which I think definitely is
cooled by the cooling system.

Another chart, but for coded (that is, check engine light
on) idle problems points to the engine coolant temp sensor,
like you were saying...

"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote
> Sorry for the lack of clarity....
>
> When started from cold, it takes the car 10-15 seconds to
find the 'high
> idle' which should be at around 1500rpms. Instead, it
sits at about
> 600rpms and almost stalls.
>
> After 10-15 seconds, it seems to be fine.

"Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:TRfsf.10118$3Z.6850@newsread1.news.atl.earthl ink.net...

> I'm not quite convinced that by /just/ running the water
> pump all the air in a car's cooling system will find its way
> up towards the radiator cap, through the overflow tube, and
> out the reservoir vent. Ya gotta heat the system up, too,
> for one thing, to abet the release of the gases from
> solution. For another, ya gotta provide a vent. With the
> radiator cap on, and so the system pressurized, those gases
> can't really thoroughly bubble out.

I don't see all of the remaining air will make it to the cap. If
the car never heats up the thermostat never opens, you'll
probably have gases running around the heater core instead.
Which is usually the case when there isn't any substantial
amount of liquid to open the thermostat.

> Hence the purging
> procedure has one beginning with a cold engine (and heater
> control on max hot), removing the radiator cap from the fill
> neck, leaving the cap off, then starting the car. Any air
> slowly bubbles out the fill neck.

Again, I doubt all the air is going to make it out thru the cap. That's
what the bleed bolt is designed for. It's one of the highest point
in the cooling system. It must be bled here.

> Ya wait until the fan
> comes on twice, which means the coolant is about as hot as
> it can get, too. Then top off the system, screw on the cap,
> and go. Check reservoir level an hour later, a day later,
> then a few days, then weeks.

If bled properly the reservoir won't change days or weeks later.
Many cars offer different ways of bleeding, but if people check
out this link more likely it'll work for your car.

http://square.cjb.cc/c/?HowToBleedCoolants

"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message news:498a81bdefef94f9b480c9b581c60d9b@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...

> Sorry for the lack of clarity....
>
> When started from cold, it takes the car 10-15 seconds to find the 'high
> idle' which should be at around 1500rpms. Instead, it sits at about
> 600rpms and almost stalls.
>
> After 10-15 seconds, it seems to be fine.

That's because the current sent to the lazy AIC is ignored by the AIC for
a couple seconds. To troubleshoot, measure the current on the
AIC just right after startup. If there is current but no reaction, repair the
AIC.

"Burt" <marccrepeau@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote
> > I'm not quite convinced that by /just/ running the water
> > pump all the air in a car's cooling system will find its
way
> > up towards the radiator cap, through the overflow tube,
and
> > out the reservoir vent. Ya gotta heat the system up,
too,
> > for one thing, to abet the release of the gases from
> > solution. For another, ya gotta provide a vent. With the
> > radiator cap on, and so the system pressurized, those
gases
> > can't really thoroughly bubble out.
>
> I don't see all of the remaining air will make it to the
cap.

Huh?

Are you agreeing with what I wrote?

Or are you practicing your English on the newsgroups?
Dammit.

> If
> the car never heats up the thermostat never opens, you'll
> probably have gases running around the heater core
instead.
> Which is usually the case when there isn't any substantial
> amount of liquid to open the thermostat.
>
> > Hence the purging
> > procedure has one beginning with a cold engine (and
heater
> > control on max hot), removing the radiator cap from the
fill
> > neck, leaving the cap off, then starting the car. Any
air
> > slowly bubbles out the fill neck.
>
> Again, I doubt all the air is going to make it out thru
the cap. That's
> what the bleed bolt is designed for.

I think we're having a disconnect. It's a two step process.
The manual has one first bleeding as much air as possible
out the bleed bolt, with the engine cold and off. Then it
has one bleeding it out the filler neck, with the engine
running until the fan comes on.

The bleed bolt can purge only so much air, since the coolant
is not yet hot.

> It's one of the highest point
> in the cooling system. It must be bled here.
>
> > Ya wait until the fan
> > comes on twice, which means the coolant is about as hot
as
> > it can get, too. Then top off the system, screw on the
cap,
> > and go. Check reservoir level an hour later, a day
later,
> > then a few days, then weeks.
>
> If bled properly the reservoir won't change days or weeks
later.

Right. To confirm a proper purging, I check the reservoir.

> Many cars offer different ways of bleeding, but if people
check
> out this link more likely it'll work for your car.
>
> http://square.cjb.cc/c/?HowToBleedCoolants

What the hell's wrong with the manual? Several of which are
online already. Your steps differ from it. For one, you do
not direct that the car be run with the rad cap off until
the fan comes on twice. For another, the manual does not
direct opening of the bleed valve with the car running.

Step 8's english is atrocious.

You are practicing your English with this site, aren't you?
Had enough of that bull in grad school...

"Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:Svnsf.1249$M%4.682@newsread3.news.atl.earthli nk.net...

> Are you agreeing with what I wrote?

Neither. I'd accidentally hit the send button and sent the draft
instead. Just ignore it. I'd intended to reply to this paragraph.

> I'm not quite convinced that by /just/ running the water
> pump all the air in a car's cooling system will find its way
> up towards the radiator cap, through the overflow tube, and
> out the reservoir vent. Ya gotta heat the system up, too,
> for one thing, to abet the release of the gases from
> solution. For another, ya gotta provide a vent. With the
> radiator cap on, and so the system pressurized, those gases
> can't really thoroughly bubble out. Hence the purging
> procedure has one beginning with a cold engine (and heater
> control on max hot), removing the radiator cap from the fill
> neck, leaving the cap off, then starting the car. Any air
> slowly bubbles out the fill neck. Ya wait until the fan
> comes on twice, which means the coolant is about as hot as
> it can get, too. Then top off the system, screw on the cap,
> and go. Check reservoir level an hour later, a day later,
> then a few days, then weeks.

What I wanted to say is that the above method omitted the
bleed bolt, which is very important.

> I think we're having a disconnect. It's a two step process.
> The manual has one first bleeding as much air as possible
> out the bleed bolt, with the engine cold and off. Then it
> has one bleeding it out the filler neck, with the engine
> running until the fan comes on.

True. But you didn't mentioned that earlier.

> The bleed bolt can purge only so much air, since the coolant
> is not yet hot.

The bleed bolt can purge a very substantial amount of air. On
some models (90-94 Accord) this is a major place to bleed.

> What the hell's wrong with the manual? Several of which are
> online already.

Nothing's wrong with the service manual. What's wrong are the
steps. They're model specific.

> For one, you do not direct that the car be run with the rad
> cap off until the fan comes on twice.

I see, you want to remove the cap while under pressure. Be my guess.

>For another, the manual does not direct opening of the bleed
>valve with the car running.

I know. They're not living in the real world.

> Step 8's english is atrocious.

Fixed. English, not english.

> You are practicing your English with this site, aren't you?
> Had enough of that bull in grad school...

"Burt S." <burtsquareman@gmail.comSPAM> wrote
E
snip
> > For one, you do not direct that the car be run with the
rad
> > cap off until the fan comes on twice.
>
> I see, you want to remove the cap while under pressure.

Nope. Read what I wrote, and see the manual as I advise.

disallow wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Previous posts I have put up will bring you through the 'saga' i have had
> with my sisters car. Short story is that the t-belt snapped. It was
> then
> taken to a honda dealership. They just put it back together (650 bucks
> later)
> said no compression on cylinder 3. Obviously, the incident caused valve
> damage on cylinder 3 (all 4 valves bent), so I took the car to my house,
> pulled the head off, replaced them and put it back together.
>
> Well its all back together now, and it is running well, except at initial
> startup. It takes 10-15 seconds for it to figure things out, then it goes
> up
> to about 1500 rpms until warmed up, and drops down to the correct rpm.
>
> I told my sisters husband that this is probably due to there being air in
> the
> cooling system. I imagine that if the car has been sitting overnight,
> that
> the air in the system would 'burp' up to the top of the cooling system.
> Pretty much right at the top is the coolant temp sensor, which would not
> be
> immersed due to the air in the system. After 10-15 seconds though, the
> water
> pump will have primed the system, and the sensor would now be immersed,
> allowing the correct idle to be attained.
>
> Is this a safe assumption or am I talking outta my a.s?
>
> Other items of note:
>
> Initially, the car had been put back together (without any work on the
> valves)
> at a honda dealership. 2 items got destroyed when the t-belt snapped;
> the
> CKF sensor and the lower timing cover. Well there are already belt slap
> marks on the inside of the timing cover due to incorrect tension setting
> on
> honda's part.
>
> Also, the timing belt was off by 1 tooth from the dealership.
>
> I'm pretty pissed at the dealerfor their complete lack of knowledge
> on how to tell if there is valve damage without actually just putting it
> back
> together and hearing a cylinder miss.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> t
>

yes - good for you!!!

you can try taking issue with the dealer, but since you did the work
yourself, there's no labor receipts you can show the dealer for "loss"
in getting their repair repaired, so it could be tricky. still worth it
though. call the main honda usa customer care # too and discuss the
problem with them first. they're generally fair.

again, good for you in fixing the car - there's many a good honda
prematurely consigned to the junk yard because of "repairs" like your
dealer did.