Honda Car Forum

On 26 Nov 2005 09:57:57 -0800, "pichula" <kansas4451@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I went last week to a Honda dealer to trade in my car for a new Accord
>Value Pack (VP, base model). I was surprised by all their tactics to
>get the most out of my money. I don't blame the salesperson because he
>was nice and helpful, but I think the sales manager went a little too
>far in his methods. I also have to say that after the deal was done,
>they were all nice guys and very helpful with all the process. I'm
>going to enumerate the things I consider bad tactics because they were
>just too many:

You are right, this is way too many things. At least they backed down
relatively easy.

RE #6. I don't think you got too bad a deal on the financing. 30
year mortgages are about 6% now so 6.6% on a car loan doesn't sound
too bad. You might have saved a few tenths from your credit union -
it would have been good to have gotten a rate quote from them before
you ventured into a dealership.

Others mentioned keeping the new car and trade-in deals separate.
Part of that is knowing not only what is a good price on new car
(which you seem to have done) but also knowing what is a fair price on
the trade-in, what Car Max would pay you for it, and what is a fair
private party sale price. Even if you aren't willing to sell it
yourself, you can use these facts in your negotiations.

>1) When I told them I wanted the Value Pack, the manager said that it
>had no power windows. That I better choose the LX or EX. That's not
>true.

Lying is bad.

>2) When I came back next day he said that VP had no Cruise Control. I
>checked the car I wanted to buy and I noticed the cruise control was
>there.

Lying is bad.

>3) When we were negotiating the price he showed me the invoice price, I
>said the invoice price I saw at edmunds.com was lower. When he noticed
>I was not accepting that price he showed me that there was about $200
>marketing charge and accepted to remove it. Nothing bad about this part
>because I think dealers usually try to add these hidden charges without
>telling customers.

Burglars usually try to break into your house, but that doesn't mean
it's not bad. Marketing (i.e. advertising) is part of their overhead,
and a discretionary part at that. Why should you be paying them to
advertise to you? It would be slightly more reasonable for them to
charge you a heating charge to keep the dealership building warm.

>4) After negotiating the price for my trade in and the price of the
>Accord VP, he came with a blank page (where all the totals are
>calculated) for me to sign. I said I wanted to see the final numbers
>before I sign the page. I said I cannot sign a blank sheet for them
>later to add the totals. They accepted.

Tell them you will do that if they are willing to sign a blank check
on the dealership account for you to fill in later to

>5) Then he came with the same sheet with a total amount higher than
>what we negotiated. I told them that we had to subtract the amount I
>get from my trade in. At this time the manager pretended to be
>exasperated with me, like if I was asking for too much. He said that he
>would do it later and refused to write it in the sheet. So I took the
>pen and had to do the subtraction in front of him and underlined the
>final amount. He accepted that amount.

It would have been so much easier if you had just signed the blank
one.

>
>6) At about 9:00 PM (they were already closed but there were still a
>few customers finalizing their deals), I was tired but happy when the
>manager brought the paper work describing my monthly payments. Let me
>say that I have very good credit (over 700), and the manager told me he
>was going to run my information with about 15 banks and get me the best
>deal. Not true, he got me financing with Honda. How can he run my
>information with 15 banks and come with a loan from honda financeing?
>Maybe I'm missing something here. Anyway he got me 6.6% interest which
>I consider too high but I still accepted. Maybe I should have got the
>loan with my credit union.

I think you got lucky on this. Then again you probably would have
walked if it was 8%.

>7) He showed my monthly payments at about $35 over what I estimated,
>and handed me a pen to sign. I asked me how can it be so high? Then he
>said I was getting the 7 years/100K miles warranty. When I insisted in
>how much it costed, he said $1600. He said if I don't take the warranty
>I'm taking a big risk if the car breaks. I asked him how can he tell me
>these are the best cars in the market and now he's telling me that I'm
>taking a big risk because they can break. Finnally he accepted to
>remove the warranty and I got the payment amount I wanted.

They think you will let down your guard when you think the deal is
almost complete. Many buyers can't really figure out what a loan
payment should be, so it is an good chance to cheat them one last
time. These guys are sleaze balls.

>I remember at a Chevrolet dealer in 1998 I had a very good experience
>buying my chevy Malibu, I still remember the name of the Chevy sales
>person (Mike), I can't believe at Honda these guys gave me such a hard
>time.

I have dealt with several Honda dealers who were totally straight and
honest in their dealings. It is not impossible,

>After the negotiation, the manager and sales person were very nice and
>helpful.

Just be glad you aren't his dog on a night like that.

In article <t7oho1pp47s5gcmp87h6l1k2678alhc54r@4ax.com>,
gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:

> On 26 Nov 2005 09:57:57 -0800, "pichula" <kansas4451@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I went last week to a Honda dealer to trade in my car for a new Accord
> >Value Pack (VP, base model). I was surprised by all their tactics to
> >get the most out of my money. I don't blame the salesperson because he
> >was nice and helpful, but I think the sales manager went a little too
> >far in his methods. I also have to say that after the deal was done,
> >they were all nice guys and very helpful with all the process. I'm
> >going to enumerate the things I consider bad tactics because they were
> >just too many:
>
> You are right, this is way too many things. At least they backed down
> relatively easy.
>
> RE #6. I don't think you got too bad a deal on the financing. 30
> year mortgages are about 6% now so 6.6% on a car loan doesn't sound
> too bad. You might have saved a few tenths from your credit union -
> it would have been good to have gotten a rate quote from them before
> you ventured into a dealership.
>
> Others mentioned keeping the new car and trade-in deals separate.
> Part of that is knowing not only what is a good price on new car
> (which you seem to have done) but also knowing what is a fair price on
> the trade-in, what Car Max would pay you for it, and what is a fair
> private party sale price. Even if you aren't willing to sell it
> yourself, you can use these facts in your negotiations.
>
> >1) When I told them I wanted the Value Pack, the manager said that it
> >had no power windows. That I better choose the LX or EX. That's not
> >true.
>
> Lying is bad.
>
> >2) When I came back next day he said that VP had no Cruise Control. I
> >checked the car I wanted to buy and I noticed the cruise control was
> >there.
>
> Lying is bad.
>
> >3) When we were negotiating the price he showed me the invoice price, I
> >said the invoice price I saw at edmunds.com was lower. When he noticed
> >I was not accepting that price he showed me that there was about $200
> >marketing charge and accepted to remove it. Nothing bad about this part
> >because I think dealers usually try to add these hidden charges without
> >telling customers.
>
> Burglars usually try to break into your house, but that doesn't mean
> it's not bad. Marketing (i.e. advertising) is part of their overhead,
> and a discretionary part at that. Why should you be paying them to
> advertise to you? It would be slightly more reasonable for them to
> charge you a heating charge to keep the dealership building warm.
>
> >4) After negotiating the price for my trade in and the price of the
> >Accord VP, he came with a blank page (where all the totals are
> >calculated) for me to sign. I said I wanted to see the final numbers
> >before I sign the page. I said I cannot sign a blank sheet for them
> >later to add the totals. They accepted.
>
> Tell them you will do that if they are willing to sign a blank check
> on the dealership account for you to fill in later to
>
> >5) Then he came with the same sheet with a total amount higher than
> >what we negotiated. I told them that we had to subtract the amount I
> >get from my trade in. At this time the manager pretended to be
> >exasperated with me, like if I was asking for too much. He said that he
> >would do it later and refused to write it in the sheet. So I took the
> >pen and had to do the subtraction in front of him and underlined the
> >final amount. He accepted that amount.
>
> It would have been so much easier if you had just signed the blank
> one.
>
> >
> >6) At about 9:00 PM (they were already closed but there were still a
> >few customers finalizing their deals), I was tired but happy when the
> >manager brought the paper work describing my monthly payments. Let me
> >say that I have very good credit (over 700), and the manager told me he
> >was going to run my information with about 15 banks and get me the best
> >deal. Not true, he got me financing with Honda. How can he run my
> >information with 15 banks and come with a loan from honda financeing?
> >Maybe I'm missing something here. Anyway he got me 6.6% interest which
> >I consider too high but I still accepted. Maybe I should have got the
> >loan with my credit union.
>
> I think you got lucky on this. Then again you probably would have
> walked if it was 8%.
>
> >7) He showed my monthly payments at about $35 over what I estimated,
> >and handed me a pen to sign. I asked me how can it be so high? Then he
> >said I was getting the 7 years/100K miles warranty. When I insisted in
> >how much it costed, he said $1600. He said if I don't take the warranty
> >I'm taking a big risk if the car breaks. I asked him how can he tell me
> >these are the best cars in the market and now he's telling me that I'm
> >taking a big risk because they can break. Finnally he accepted to
> >remove the warranty and I got the payment amount I wanted.
>
> They think you will let down your guard when you think the deal is
> almost complete. Many buyers can't really figure out what a loan
> payment should be, so it is an good chance to cheat them one last
> time. These guys are sleaze balls.
>
> >I remember at a Chevrolet dealer in 1998 I had a very good experience
> >buying my chevy Malibu, I still remember the name of the Chevy sales
> >person (Mike), I can't believe at Honda these guys gave me such a hard
> >time.
>
> I have dealt with several Honda dealers who were totally straight and
> honest in their dealings. It is not impossible,
>
> >After the negotiation, the manager and sales person were very nice and
> >helpful.
>
> Just be glad you aren't his dog on a night like that.

Hello,
Thanks for your excellent post. If you ever buy another car, get the best
deal that you can get at two or more Honda dealerships. Don't ever sign
any papers until you think about it for at least one or two days. The
salesman will try to make you believe that they will sell that car you
wanted during the next two days--therefore, just say, "Go ahead and sell
it since I am sure that is not the only new Honda that is in this city."
In most cases, that car you wanted will still be unsold for at least two
days. Even if it is sold, buy another one from that dealer or another one.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

I think you got reamed on the interest rate. 2 weeks ago I got 5.74%
after the rate was increased through my credit union. Honda financing
could not come close to that rate

--Nicholas

pichula wrote:
> I went last week to a Honda dealer to trade in my car for a new Accord
> Value Pack (VP, base model). I was surprised by all their tactics to
> get the most out of my money. I don't blame the salesperson because he
> was nice and helpful, but I think the sales manager went a little too
> far in his methods. I also have to say that after the deal was done,
> they were all nice guys and very helpful with all the process. I'm
> going to enumerate the things I consider bad tactics because they were
> just too many:
>
> 1) When I told them I wanted the Value Pack, the manager said that it
> had no power windows. That I better choose the LX or EX. That's not
> true.
>
> 2) When I came back next day he said that VP had no Cruise Control. I
> checked the car I wanted to buy and I noticed the cruise control was
> there.
>
> 3) When we were negotiating the price he showed me the invoice price, I
> said the invoice price I saw at edmunds.com was lower. When he noticed
> I was not accepting that price he showed me that there was about $200
> marketing charge and accepted to remove it. Nothing bad about this part
> because I think dealers usually try to add these hidden charges without
> telling customers.
>
> 4) After negotiating the price for my trade in and the price of the
> Accord VP, he came with a blank page (where all the totals are
> calculated) for me to sign. I said I wanted to see the final numbers
> before I sign the page. I said I cannot sign a blank sheet for them
> later to add the totals. They accepted.
>
> 5) Then he came with the same sheet with a total amount higher than
> what we negotiated. I told them that we had to subtract the amount I
> get from my trade in. At this time the manager pretended to be
> exasperated with me, like if I was asking for too much. He said that he
> would do it later and refused to write it in the sheet. So I took the
> pen and had to do the subtraction in front of him and underlined the
> final amount. He accepted that amount.
>
> 6) At about 9:00 PM (they were already closed but there were still a
> few customers finalizing their deals), I was tired but happy when the
> manager brought the paper work describing my monthly payments. Let me
> say that I have very good credit (over 700), and the manager told me he
> was going to run my information with about 15 banks and get me the best
> deal. Not true, he got me financing with Honda. How can he run my
> information with 15 banks and come with a loan from honda financeing?
> Maybe I'm missing something here. Anyway he got me 6.6% interest which
> I consider too high but I still accepted. Maybe I should have got the
> loan with my credit union.
>
> 7) He showed my monthly payments at about $35 over what I estimated,
> and handed me a pen to sign. I asked me how can it be so high? Then he
> said I was getting the 7 years/100K miles warranty. When I insisted in
> how much it costed, he said $1600. He said if I don't take the warranty
> I'm taking a big risk if the car breaks. I asked him how can he tell me
> these are the best cars in the market and now he's telling me that I'm
> taking a big risk because they can break. Finnally he accepted to
> remove the warranty and I got the payment amount I wanted.
>
> I remember at a Chevrolet dealer in 1998 I had a very good experience
> buying my chevy Malibu, I still remember the name of the Chevy sales
> person (Mike), I can't believe at Honda these guys gave me such a hard
> time.
>
> After the negotiation, the manager and sales person were very nice and
> helpful.
>

Nicholas Coday <j.coday@comcast.net> wrote in
rec.autos.makers.honda:

> I think you got reamed on the interest rate. 2 weeks ago I got
> 5.74% after the rate was increased through my credit union. Honda
> financing could not come close to that rate
>

I got 5.1% in October. When I still complained about the monthly
payment, they increased the loan from 60 months to 72 without
increasing the rate, which should have been at least a point higher.
Of course, my credit score was 808, so your mileage may vary.

--
Brandy**Alexandre®
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?

My current credit union is from 5.35% for 48months. I picked up my Accord
about 3 1/2 months ago for 4.74% w/Honda financing. I walked in there with
a pre-approved loan from my credit union, and they beat their best offer by
a quarter point. It really pays to walk in there with a pre-approved check
and see what they are willling to do.

-Dave


"Nicholas Coday" <j.coday@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3PKdnRHUL_0giBTeRVn-ig@comcast.com...
>I think you got reamed on the interest rate. 2 weeks ago I got 5.74% after
>the rate was increased through my credit union. Honda financing could not
>come close to that rate
>
> --Nicholas
>
> pichula wrote:
>> I went last week to a Honda dealer to trade in my car for a new Accord
>> Value Pack (VP, base model). I was surprised by all their tactics to
>> get the most out of my money. I don't blame the salesperson because he
>> was nice and helpful, but I think the sales manager went a little too
>> far in his methods. I also have to say that after the deal was done,
>> they were all nice guys and very helpful with all the process. I'm
>> going to enumerate the things I consider bad tactics because they were
>> just too many:
>>
>> 1) When I told them I wanted the Value Pack, the manager said that it
>> had no power windows. That I better choose the LX or EX. That's not
>> true.
>>
>> 2) When I came back next day he said that VP had no Cruise Control. I
>> checked the car I wanted to buy and I noticed the cruise control was
>> there.
>>
>> 3) When we were negotiating the price he showed me the invoice price, I
>> said the invoice price I saw at edmunds.com was lower. When he noticed
>> I was not accepting that price he showed me that there was about $200
>> marketing charge and accepted to remove it. Nothing bad about this part
>> because I think dealers usually try to add these hidden charges without
>> telling customers.
>>
>> 4) After negotiating the price for my trade in and the price of the
>> Accord VP, he came with a blank page (where all the totals are
>> calculated) for me to sign. I said I wanted to see the final numbers
>> before I sign the page. I said I cannot sign a blank sheet for them
>> later to add the totals. They accepted.
>>
>> 5) Then he came with the same sheet with a total amount higher than
>> what we negotiated. I told them that we had to subtract the amount I
>> get from my trade in. At this time the manager pretended to be
>> exasperated with me, like if I was asking for too much. He said that he
>> would do it later and refused to write it in the sheet. So I took the
>> pen and had to do the subtraction in front of him and underlined the
>> final amount. He accepted that amount.
>>
>> 6) At about 9:00 PM (they were already closed but there were still a
>> few customers finalizing their deals), I was tired but happy when the
>> manager brought the paper work describing my monthly payments. Let me
>> say that I have very good credit (over 700), and the manager told me he
>> was going to run my information with about 15 banks and get me the best
>> deal. Not true, he got me financing with Honda. How can he run my
>> information with 15 banks and come with a loan from honda financeing?
>> Maybe I'm missing something here. Anyway he got me 6.6% interest which
>> I consider too high but I still accepted. Maybe I should have got the
>> loan with my credit union.
>>
>> 7) He showed my monthly payments at about $35 over what I estimated,
>> and handed me a pen to sign. I asked me how can it be so high? Then he
>> said I was getting the 7 years/100K miles warranty. When I insisted in
>> how much it costed, he said $1600. He said if I don't take the warranty
>> I'm taking a big risk if the car breaks. I asked him how can he tell me
>> these are the best cars in the market and now he's telling me that I'm
>> taking a big risk because they can break. Finnally he accepted to
>> remove the warranty and I got the payment amount I wanted.
>>
>> I remember at a Chevrolet dealer in 1998 I had a very good experience
>> buying my chevy Malibu, I still remember the name of the Chevy sales
>> person (Mike), I can't believe at Honda these guys gave me such a hard
>> time.
>>
>> After the negotiation, the manager and sales person were very nice and
>> helpful.
>>

"Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns971AD814152018675309@129.250.170.93...
> Nicholas Coday <j.coday@comcast.net> wrote in
> rec.autos.makers.honda:
>
>> I think you got reamed on the interest rate. 2 weeks ago I got
>> 5.74% after the rate was increased through my credit union. Honda
>> financing could not come close to that rate
>>
>
> I got 5.1% in October. When I still complained about the monthly
> payment, they increased the loan from 60 months to 72 without
> increasing the rate, which should have been at least a point higher.
> Of course, my credit score was 808, so your mileage may vary.
>
> --
> Brandy Alexandre®
> http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
> Well, would you?

Yes, the business mgr offered to increase the months to reduce my payments
too, but that would mean extending the length of the loan and increasing the
amount of interest I'd have to pay. He tried doing this so I would go for
one of the extra packages they try to sell. I wanted to the the lowest
bottom line cost, so declined the offer.

Here are a couple of good sites for auto and other finance calculators:
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/rate/calc_home.asp

Or you could go here for the auto payment calculator and fill in your
numbers:
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/auto-loan-calculator.asp

It really helps with figuring out what you need to pay ahead of time so if
they do the financing for you, you'll know if they added other things to the
final cost.

Hope it helps!
-Dave

Dave L <davelieuREMOVEME@yahoo.com> wrote in rec.autos.makers.honda:

>
> "Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> wrote in
> message news:Xns971AD814152018675309@129.250.170.93...
>> Nicholas Coday <j.coday@comcast.net> wrote in
>> rec.autos.makers.honda:
>>
>>> I think you got reamed on the interest rate. 2 weeks ago I got
>>> 5.74% after the rate was increased through my credit union.
>>> Honda financing could not come close to that rate
>>>
>>
>> I got 5.1% in October. When I still complained about the monthly
>> payment, they increased the loan from 60 months to 72 without
>> increasing the rate, which should have been at least a point
>> higher. Of course, my credit score was 808, so your mileage may
>> vary.
>>
>> --
>> Brandy Alexandre®
>> http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
>> Well, would you?
>
> Yes, the business mgr offered to increase the months to reduce my
> payments too, but that would mean extending the length of the loan
> and increasing the amount of interest I'd have to pay. He tried
> doing this so I would go for one of the extra packages they try to
> sell. I wanted to the the lowest bottom line cost, so declined
> the offer.
>
> Here are a couple of good sites for auto and other finance
> calculators: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/rate/calc_home.asp
>
> Or you could go here for the auto payment calculator and fill in
> your numbers:
> http://www.bankrate.com/brm/auto-loan-calculator.asp
>
> It really helps with figuring out what you need to pay ahead of
> time so if they do the financing for you, you'll know if they
> added other things to the final cost.
>
> Hope it helps!
> -Dave
>
>
>

Well, It wasn't so much that I couldn't afford it, but that I wanted
the lowest possible obligation in case anything happened. I have
and intend to continue paying significantly more than the payment
amount, and few lenders are actually set up that way. That's why I
like the Honda finance. That extra year doesn't amount to a hill of
beans in the scheme of things.

--
Brandy**Alexandre®
http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx
Well, would you?

pichula wrote:
> I went last week to a Honda dealer to trade in my car for a new Accord

big mistake. sell your car private party first. unless its some piece of
crap you wanna unload quickly.

> Value Pack (VP, base model). I was surprised by all their tactics to
> get the most out of my money. I don't blame the salesperson because he

all salesmen are out to get as much money as possible. ive only met ONE
honest one, who was truthful and straightforward. he probably no longer
works there

> was nice and helpful, but I think the sales manager went a little too
> far in his methods. I also have to say that after the deal was done,
> they were all nice guys and very helpful with all the process. I'm
> going to enumerate the things I consider bad tactics because they were
> just too many:
>
> 1) When I told them I wanted the Value Pack, the manager said that it
> had no power windows. That I better choose the LX or EX. That's not
> true.
>
> 2) When I came back next day he said that VP had no Cruise Control. I
> checked the car I wanted to buy and I noticed the cruise control was
> there.

half the time the salesmen dont know shit about the cars they sell. they
arent enthusiasts.
>
> 3) When we were negotiating the price he showed me the invoice price, I
> said the invoice price I saw at edmunds.com was lower. When he noticed
> I was not accepting that price he showed me that there was about $200
> marketing charge and accepted to remove it. Nothing bad about this part
> because I think dealers usually try to add these hidden charges without
> telling customers.

and prices DO change. what edmunds says and what the dealer says may
both be right, or wrong. "invoice" doesnt mean much anyway- its just a
number to make you feel better than if you paid full MSRP. which a lot
of people do.
>
> 4) After negotiating the price for my trade in and the price of the
> Accord VP, he came with a blank page (where all the totals are
> calculated) for me to sign. I said I wanted to see the final numbers
> before I sign the page. I said I cannot sign a blank sheet for them
> later to add the totals. They accepted.

smart guy. personally, at that point i mighta walked. theyre sleazy for
handing you a blank document to sign.
>
> 5) Then he came with the same sheet with a total amount higher than
> what we negotiated. I told them that we had to subtract the amount I
> get from my trade in. At this time the manager pretended to be
> exasperated with me, like if I was asking for too much. He said that he
> would do it later and refused to write it in the sheet. So I took the
> pen and had to do the subtraction in front of him and underlined the
> final amount. He accepted that amount.

yup- theyre assholes
>
> 6) At about 9:00 PM (they were already closed but there were still a
> few customers finalizing their deals), I was tired but happy when the
> manager brought the paper work describing my monthly payments. Let me
> say that I have very good credit (over 700), and the manager told me he
> was going to run my information with about 15 banks and get me the best
> deal. Not true, he got me financing with Honda. How can he run my
> information with 15 banks and come with a loan from honda financeing?

because they make more money when they sell you a loan through honda.

> Maybe I'm missing something here. Anyway he got me 6.6% interest which
> I consider too high but I still accepted. Maybe I should have got the
> loan with my credit union.

yes- ALWAYS have cash down instead of a tradein, and always have
financing lined up.
>
> 7) He showed my monthly payments at about $35 over what I estimated,
> and handed me a pen to sign. I asked me how can it be so high? Then he
> said I was getting the 7 years/100K miles warranty. When I insisted in

jesus mary and joseph- these guys are MAJOR assholes.

> how much it costed, he said $1600. He said if I don't take the warranty
> I'm taking a big risk if the car breaks. I asked him how can he tell me
> these are the best cars in the market and now he's telling me that I'm
> taking a big risk because they can break. Finnally he accepted to
> remove the warranty and I got the payment amount I wanted.

good for you! i like running that line by em, myself... since hondas and
toyotas are so "good"

what dealership was this, anyway?

Bozo wrote:
>> You have three transactions: new car sale, old car sale, and money
>> sale. Letting one guy quarterback all three of them is crazy.
>>
> Not always true. For example if he really needs the sale he may be
> prepared to reduce the sales price a little IF he gets the finance as well.
>
> As to the trade-in, you may get a few more dollars with a private sale,
> but sell to the dealer and no haggling etc
>


id only trade in something i wanted to unload quickly, like if the car
had a knocking rod, or a failing tranny.

Gordon McGrew wrote:
> Others mentioned keeping the new car and trade-in deals separate.
> Part of that is knowing not only what is a good price on new car
> (which you seem to have done) but also knowing what is a fair price on
> the trade-in, what Car Max would pay you for it, and what is a fair
> private party sale price.

i thought carmax bought strictly at low blue book tradein value.