Honda Car Forum

SoCalMike wrote:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>
>> "The magic of diffusion allows moisture in the air to permeate
>> microscopic pores in the rubber brake hoses, the nylon master cylinder
>> reservoir, and the various rubber seals in the hydraulic system.
>> Sadly, there is nothing we can do about it and if left unchecked the
>> water would sit in our brake system and rot it away from the inside out."
>
>
> for the same reason tires slowly lose air through the carcass. FWIW,
> costco offers a nitrogen air fill. supposedly, the benefits are:
>
> its dryer than regular air
> its molecules are bigger than air molecules, reducing diffusion
> less susceptible to expansion/contraction due to temp changes.
>
> if anyone wants to dispute this, go right ahead

Um, "air" is a mixture of several gases, the most prevalent one being
Nitrogen (approx. 78% IIRC). Hard to imagine any significant difference
in diffusing.

http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele007.html

Reminds me somewhat of the "enriched" water for sale in my local deli a
few years ago. It was enriched with extra oxygen to promote good health
- I asked the guy how he could differentiate it from hydrogen peroxide
(H2O2). Got a really blank look.

"Sparky Spartacus" <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote in message news:Vhdkf.85$Kf4.47@fe08.lga...

> Um, "air" is a mixture of several gases, the most prevalent one being
> Nitrogen (approx. 78% IIRC). Hard to imagine any significant difference
> in diffusing. http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele007.html

Unlike plain old air, race cars sometimes use pure nitrogen in the
tires becasue the pressure build-up as the tire heats up is more
predictable. Pure notrigen also doesn't react with the rubber inside
your tires to an extent.

> Reminds me somewhat of the "enriched" water for sale in my local deli a
> few years ago. It was enriched with extra oxygen to promote good health
> - I asked the guy how he could differentiate it from hydrogen peroxide
> (H2O2). Got a really blank look.

This "enriched" water has excess oxygen, more than the 2 to 1 ratio
of H2O water. There are two types; one with a high reduction
potential (ionized "enriched" water) and the other with a high oxidation
potential like H2O2.

And, yes, I do take this "enriched" water and H2O2. H2O2,
on the hand, reacts with your tissues just like plain old
oxygen do to tires.

Ricky Spartacus wrote:

> "Sparky Spartacus" <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote in message news:Vhdkf.85$Kf4.47@fe08.lga...
>
>
>>Um, "air" is a mixture of several gases, the most prevalent one being
>>Nitrogen (approx. 78% IIRC). Hard to imagine any significant difference
>>in diffusing. http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele007.html
>
> Unlike plain old air, race cars sometimes use pure nitrogen in the
> tires becasue the pressure build-up as the tire heats up is more
> predictable. Pure notrigen also doesn't react with the rubber inside
> your tires to an extent.

Which has what to do with the OP's question regarding *diffusion*?

>>Reminds me somewhat of the "enriched" water for sale in my local deli a
>>few years ago. It was enriched with extra oxygen to promote good health
>>- I asked the guy how he could differentiate it from hydrogen peroxide
>>(H2O2). Got a really blank look.
>
> This "enriched" water has excess oxygen, more than the 2 to 1 ratio
> of H2O water. There are two types; one with a high reduction
> potential (ionized "enriched" water) and the other with a high oxidation
> potential like H2O2.
>
> And, yes, I do take this "enriched" water and H2O2. H2O2,
> on the hand, reacts with your tissues just like plain old
> oxygen do to tires.

The only place O2 does a human being any good is in the lungs (and
subsequently the bloodstream - do you know why cardiac patients and
people who've had diving accidents are put on O2 and why it's via a
nasal cannula/face mask and not by mouth or injection?), otherwise it's
free radicals and harmful - how badly do you want to oxidize your GI tract?

"Burt S." <burtsquareman@gmailcom> wrote in
news:dJHbf.13863$tV6.6259@newssvr27.news.prodigy.n et:

> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns9706CC00B38E6tegger@207.14.113.17...
>
>> > Myself and a friend of mine just put new brakes on my 1991 Honda
>> > Prelude Si. We did the rear brakes, replaced the calapers, rotors,
>> > pads and then bled them all, front and back. We bled them all 3
>> > times and refilled the brake fluid in both the booster and the ALB
>> > system. After all this the brakes are still very soft. I have to
>> > press the pedal almost all the way down to get any stoping power.
>
>> You've toasted your Master Cylinder seals.
>
> He mentioned mushy and almost all the way down, not all the way to
> the floor. This could be the symptoms of air in the system probably
> from sucking air thru the piston seal at the wheels.
>
>
>

Can't you differentiate by pumping the brakes? if you cannot pump the
brakes to stiffness (each successive pump remains spongey) then it's
probably the master cylinder seals?

Sparky Spartacus wrote:
> SoCalMike wrote:
>
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>>> "The magic of diffusion allows moisture in the air to permeate
>>> microscopic pores in the rubber brake hoses, the nylon master
>>> cylinder reservoir, and the various rubber seals in the hydraulic
>>> system. Sadly, there is nothing we can do about it and if left
>>> unchecked the water would sit in our brake system and rot it away
>>> from the inside out."
>>
>>
>> for the same reason tires slowly lose air through the carcass. FWIW,
>> costco offers a nitrogen air fill. supposedly, the benefits are:
>>
>> its dryer than regular air
>> its molecules are bigger than air molecules, reducing diffusion
>> less susceptible to expansion/contraction due to temp changes.
>>
>> if anyone wants to dispute this, go right ahead
>
> Um, "air" is a mixture of several gases, the most prevalent one being
> Nitrogen (approx. 78% IIRC). Hard to imagine any significant difference
> in diffusing.
>
> http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele007.html
>
> Reminds me somewhat of the "enriched" water for sale in my local deli a
> few years ago. It was enriched with extra oxygen to promote good health
> - I asked the guy how he could differentiate it from hydrogen peroxide
> (H2O2). Got a really blank look.

well, dissolved oxygen is definitely not peroxide...

Sparky Spartacus wrote:
> Ricky Spartacus wrote:
>
>> "Sparky Spartacus" <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote in message
>> news:Vhdkf.85$Kf4.47@fe08.lga...
>>
>>
>>> Um, "air" is a mixture of several gases, the most prevalent one being
>>> Nitrogen (approx. 78% IIRC). Hard to imagine any significant difference
>>> in diffusing. http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele007.html
>>
>> Unlike plain old air, race cars sometimes use pure nitrogen in the
>> tires becasue the pressure build-up as the tire heats up is more
>> predictable. Pure notrigen also doesn't react with the rubber inside
>> your tires to an extent.
>
> Which has what to do with the OP's question regarding *diffusion*?

as you probably remember from biology classes and the semi-permeable
membrane experiment, diffusion depends on molecule size. as stated
earlier, air is a mix of gases, some being larger, some smaller than
nitrogen. if pure nitrogen is used, the diffusion rate will /not/
include the relatively rapid "disappearance" of the small molecules.

>
>>> Reminds me somewhat of the "enriched" water for sale in my local deli a
>>> few years ago. It was enriched with extra oxygen to promote good health
>>> - I asked the guy how he could differentiate it from hydrogen peroxide
>>> (H2O2). Got a really blank look.
>>
>> This "enriched" water has excess oxygen, more than the 2 to 1 ratio
>> of H2O water. There are two types; one with a high reduction
>> potential (ionized "enriched" water) and the other with a high oxidation
>> potential like H2O2.
>>
>> And, yes, I do take this "enriched" water and H2O2. H2O2,
>> on the hand, reacts with your tissues just like plain old
>> oxygen do to tires.
>
> The only place O2 does a human being any good is in the lungs (and
> subsequently the bloodstream - do you know why cardiac patients and
> people who've had diving accidents are put on O2 and why it's via a
> nasal cannula/face mask and not by mouth or injection?), otherwise it's
> free radicals and harmful - how badly do you want to oxidize your GI tract?

Kam wrote:
> "Burt S." <burtsquareman@gmailcom> wrote in
> news:dJHbf.13863$tV6.6259@newssvr27.news.prodigy.n et:
>
>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9706CC00B38E6tegger@207.14.113.17...
>>
>>>> Myself and a friend of mine just put new brakes on my 1991 Honda
>>>> Prelude Si. We did the rear brakes, replaced the calapers, rotors,
>>>> pads and then bled them all, front and back. We bled them all 3
>>>> times and refilled the brake fluid in both the booster and the ALB
>>>> system. After all this the brakes are still very soft. I have to
>>>> press the pedal almost all the way down to get any stoping power.
>>> You've toasted your Master Cylinder seals.
>> He mentioned mushy and almost all the way down, not all the way to
>> the floor. This could be the symptoms of air in the system probably
>> from sucking air thru the piston seal at the wheels.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Can't you differentiate by pumping the brakes? if you cannot pump the
> brakes to stiffness (each successive pump remains spongey) then it's
> probably the master cylinder seals?

if it's still spongy, there's still air in the system. seals are
effectively inelastic.

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in news:n5-
dnbQNdoisAW7ZnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net:

> Sparky Spartacus wrote:
>> SoCalMike wrote:

>>>
>>> if anyone wants to dispute this, go right ahead
>>
>> Um, "air" is a mixture of several gases, the most prevalent one being
>> Nitrogen (approx. 78% IIRC). Hard to imagine any significant
>> difference in diffusing.
>>
>> http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele007.html
>>
>> Reminds me somewhat of the "enriched" water for sale in my local deli
>> a few years ago. It was enriched with extra oxygen to promote good >>
>> health - I asked the guy how he could differentiate it from hydrogen
>> peroxide (H2O2). Got a really blank look.
>
>
>
> well, dissolved oxygen is definitely not peroxide...
>



Ever tasted peroxide? Yuck.

This "enriched" water in the deli is the same stuff you create in your
fish tank with that little bubbler thing. Mixing dissolved free oxygen
in with H2O is not the same thing as chemically binding O2 to H2.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Kam <kam@nowhere.com> wrote in news:Xns982DDBF39ED37none@216.196.97.131:

> "Burt S." <burtsquareman@gmailcom> wrote in
> news:dJHbf.13863$tV6.6259@newssvr27.news.prodigy.n et:
>
>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9706CC00B38E6tegger@207.14.113.17...
>>
>>> > Myself and a friend of mine just put new brakes on my 1991 Honda
>>> > Prelude Si. We did the rear brakes, replaced the calapers, rotors,
>>> > pads and then bled them all, front and back. We bled them all 3
>>> > times and refilled the brake fluid in both the booster and the ALB
>>> > system. After all this the brakes are still very soft. I have to
>>> > press the pedal almost all the way down to get any stoping power.
>>
>>> You've toasted your Master Cylinder seals.
>>
>> He mentioned mushy and almost all the way down, not all the way to
>> the floor. This could be the symptoms of air in the system probably
>> from sucking air thru the piston seal at the wheels.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Can't you differentiate by pumping the brakes? if you cannot pump the
> brakes to stiffness (each successive pump remains spongey) then it's
> probably the master cylinder seals?



Either air or a failed MC can both be pumped up. That is not a reliable
test.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:aImdndR9YL3kPG7ZnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Kam wrote:
>> "Burt S." <burtsquareman@gmailcom> wrote in
>> news:dJHbf.13863$tV6.6259@newssvr27.news.prodigy.n et:
>>
>>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9706CC00B38E6tegger@207.14.113.17...
>>>
>>>>> Myself and a friend of mine just put new brakes on my 1991 Honda
>>>>> Prelude Si. We did the rear brakes, replaced the calapers, rotors,
>>>>> pads and then bled them all, front and back. We bled them all 3
>>>>> times and refilled the brake fluid in both the booster and the ALB
>>>>> system. After all this the brakes are still very soft. I have to
>>>>> press the pedal almost all the way down to get any stoping power.
>>>> You've toasted your Master Cylinder seals.
>>> He mentioned mushy and almost all the way down, not all the way to
>>> the floor. This could be the symptoms of air in the system probably
>>> from sucking air thru the piston seal at the wheels.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Can't you differentiate by pumping the brakes? if you cannot pump the
>> brakes to stiffness (each successive pump remains spongey) then it's
>> probably the master cylinder seals?
>
> if it's still spongy, there's still air in the system. seals are
> effectively inelastic.

Well, when this happened to my civic a while back, the master cylinder
seals were the problem. I was totally unable to pump the brakes to
stiffness at all, even after bleeding the air out. The mechanic suggested
to me that the inability to pump to stiffness combined with the bleeding
indicated the master cylinder seals. :-?