Honda Car Forum

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:TcOdnZmBwLDF3_PenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>
>>Burt S. wrote:
>>
>>>"croweasley" <croweasley@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>
>>>I don't believe normal bleeding would damage the master cylinder,
>>>unless you push the pedal all the way to the floor. Put a block of
>>>wood under the brake pedal to keep it from going too deep.
>>
>>that's an old wives tale. unless the bore of the cylinder is
>>/severely/ corroded, something that doesn't happen very much in the
>>aluminum cylinders used in hondas,
>
>
>
> First off, I messed up, being distracted by another debate. The OP's
> problem was a SPONGY pedal, which as others have already pointed out, means
> air in the lines. An amazing number of people run the MC too low while
> bleeding, suck air in, then hope beyond hope that they didn't really do
> that.
>
> Since the OP has ABS (ALB), that introduces an ugly variable to the
> problem: You have to bleed at /least/ three times to do a proper job: Once
> for the primary system, once for the ALB, then once more for the primary
> system to catch what came out of the ALB. and that's for EACH CIRCUIT.
>
> Secondly, corrosion DOES happen to ALL MCs if you don't flush that water
> out of there. Aluminum corrodes in the presence of water. Period.

er, no. "aluminum" covers many hundreds of alloys and alloy products.
some corrode, some don't. brake cylinders don't corrode internally
until the fluid is /way/ contaminated. i got a cylinder from a junkyard
that had been exposed to rain - top of the reservoir off and full of
water - for months. the inside was gummed up with decayed rubber, but
it cleaned up and worked just fine with a new seal kit in it.

now, you can get a problem where the steel piston and aluminum cylinder
have an electrolytic corrosion issue, but that doesn't effect the
sealing surface down the cylinder wall until it's at a really advanced
stage.

steel cylinders otoh, /those/ things are famous for corrosion.
especially on the bottom of the cylinder where moisture collects.

> All it
> takes is a few little black spots in the bottom of the bore to scrape up
> the seals. Won't happen overnight, but it *will* happen.

the black dots are usually just rubber.

>
>
>
>
>
>>there is no damage caused to the
>>seal by using the full cylinder travel.
>
>
>
> There is. If there is corrosion, that is. Which there usually is with most
> cars after about 6-7 years or so.
>
> Well, in your neck of the woods, maybe not. SoCal is an almost unique
> driving environment. I've been there twice, and I can tell you that most
> people do not have it quite so easy as you do.
>
> Most owners never change their brake fluid. EVER. By the time you get the
> chance to service their neglect, the stuff is black and slimy, and under
> that are those evil little black dots of aluminum corrosion.
>
> George Macdonald used to recommend sucking out the old MC fluid with a
> turkey baster before bleeding. With a few more years under my belt, I can
> see why he said that.

that's good advice - no need to push contaminated junk through the whole
system.

>
>
>
>
>>after all, emergency braking
>>uses a lot more travel than standard braking - surely no one is going
>>to start saying that you shouldn't emergency brake as well?
>
>
>
>
> Define "emergency brake". If you mean the parking brake lever, then that
> has nothing to do with the Master Cylinder. If you mean pressing the pedal
> to the floor because you had to to stop the car, then you have some pretty
> serious issues there.

no, i mean panic stopping, not using the hand lever.

>
>
>
>
>>truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
>>enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new
>>fluid, i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals
>>slightly,
>
>
>
>
>
> Jim, that's an old wive's tale if I ever heard one. Those seals are a
> variant of neoprene.

ok, now you're really pulling stuff out of your ass.

http://www.sealingspecialties.com/materials.htm

> They do not swell or shrink, they just wear out. They
> get flat on the outer lip.

eh? yes they do wear, but do your homework! swelling & shrinkage is
absolutely an issue. you're expressing opinion as fact, and that
opinion is ill informed!

>
>
>
>
>>and if they're old enough, they shrink enough to leak. the
>>fact that leakage happens a couple of weeks after a fluid change leads
>>to a mistaken assumption that the system was "bled wrong". no. the
>>seals were just old and were going to fail soon anyway.
>>
>>
>>>Bleed them in the correct order with the correct procedures. Tips:
>>>
>>>Tap on the piston or what not to release the air bubbles. Until the
>>>person pressing the brake feels some overall firmness then you know
>>>it's time to abort the bleeding. Have another to make sure that the
>>>reservoir is always full.
>
>
>
>
> Don't need that. Every eight full pedal pumps, refill the reservoir.
>
>
>
>
>>>Try not to leave the fluid expose to air
>>>for too long.
>
>
>
> No problems there. It will be exposed to the air for the next few years in
> your master cylinder anyway. The MC's vented, you know.
>
>
>
>
>
>>>Use clear tubes, if not already. Bleed sequence:
>>>
>>>FL Driver side, RR rear passenger, FR front passenger, RL rear
>>>passenger.
>
>
>
> Not for Hondas. For our cars you bleed longest to shortest. Since Honda
> uses a diagonal split, it's RR, LF; LR, RF.
>
>

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:PJ-dnfVszsJA_uzeRVn-ow@speakeasy.net:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:TcOdnZmBwLDF3_PenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>
>>>Burt S. wrote:
>>>
>>>>"croweasley" <croweasley@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>>>I don't believe normal bleeding would damage the master cylinder,
>>>>unless you push the pedal all the way to the floor. Put a block of
>>>>wood under the brake pedal to keep it from going too deep.
>>>
>>>that's an old wives tale. unless the bore of the cylinder is
>>>/severely/ corroded, something that doesn't happen very much in the
>>>aluminum cylinders used in hondas,
>>
>>
>>
>> First off, I messed up, being distracted by another debate. The OP's
>> problem was a SPONGY pedal, which as others have already pointed out,
>> means air in the lines. An amazing number of people run the MC too
>> low while bleeding, suck air in, then hope beyond hope that they
>> didn't really do that.
>>
>> Since the OP has ABS (ALB), that introduces an ugly variable to the
>> problem: You have to bleed at /least/ three times to do a proper job:
>> Once for the primary system, once for the ALB, then once more for the
>> primary system to catch what came out of the ALB. and that's for EACH
>> CIRCUIT.
>>
>> Secondly, corrosion DOES happen to ALL MCs if you don't flush that
>> water out of there. Aluminum corrodes in the presence of water.
>> Period.
>
> er, no. "aluminum" covers many hundreds of alloys and alloy products.
> some corrode, some don't. brake cylinders don't corrode internally
> until the fluid is /way/ contaminated. i got a cylinder from a
> junkyard that had been exposed to rain - top of the reservoir off and
> full of water - for months. the inside was gummed up with decayed
> rubber, but it cleaned up and worked just fine with a new seal kit in
> it.



Ya got lucky. It takes time for corrosion to start.



>
> now, you can get a problem where the steel piston and aluminum
> cylinder have an electrolytic corrosion issue, but that doesn't effect
> the sealing surface down the cylinder wall until it's at a really
> advanced stage.
>
> steel cylinders otoh, /those/ things are famous for corrosion.
> especially on the bottom of the cylinder where moisture collects.
>
>> All it
>> takes is a few little black spots in the bottom of the bore to scrape
>> up the seals. Won't happen overnight, but it *will* happen.
>
> the black dots are usually just rubber.



Nope. Corrosion. A pick will hang up in the holes. Seen it often enough,
even in clutch master cylinders.

No corrosion, no dots.


>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>there is no damage caused to the
>>>seal by using the full cylinder travel.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is. If there is corrosion, that is. Which there usually is with
>> most cars after about 6-7 years or so.
>>
>> Well, in your neck of the woods, maybe not. SoCal is an almost unique
>> driving environment. I've been there twice, and I can tell you that
>> most people do not have it quite so easy as you do.
>>
>> Most owners never change their brake fluid. EVER. By the time you get
>> the chance to service their neglect, the stuff is black and slimy,
>> and under that are those evil little black dots of aluminum
>> corrosion.
>>
>> George Macdonald used to recommend sucking out the old MC fluid with
>> a turkey baster before bleeding. With a few more years under my belt,
>> I can see why he said that.
>
> that's good advice - no need to push contaminated junk through the
> whole system.




If the fluid is that bad, the rest of the system is already in trouble.




>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>after all, emergency braking
>>>uses a lot more travel than standard braking - surely no one is going
>>>to start saying that you shouldn't emergency brake as well?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Define "emergency brake". If you mean the parking brake lever, then
>> that has nothing to do with the Master Cylinder. If you mean pressing
>> the pedal to the floor because you had to to stop the car, then you
>> have some pretty serious issues there.
>
> no, i mean panic stopping, not using the hand lever.



Then what I said.



>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
>>>enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new
>>>fluid, i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals
>>>slightly,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim, that's an old wive's tale if I ever heard one. Those seals are a
>> variant of neoprene.
>
> ok, now you're really pulling stuff out of your ass.
>
> http://www.sealingspecialties.com/materials.htm



You're right. My memory is bad. I thought I had read they were neoprene.
Been years since I looked that up.

Looks like the actual stuff is ethylene propylene.




>
>> They do not swell or shrink, they just wear out. They
>> get flat on the outer lip.
>
> eh? yes they do wear, but do your homework! swelling & shrinkage is
> absolutely an issue. you're expressing opinion as fact, and that
> opinion is ill informed!



Sorry, the seals do not "swell". Unless the fluid gets contaminated with
oil.

Brake fluid is designed to prevent swelling, and seal materials are not
water soluble.






--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:PJ-dnfVszsJA_uzeRVn-ow@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>>>news:TcOdnZmBwLDF3_PenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@speakeasy .net:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Burt S. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"croweasley" <croweasley@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>I don't believe normal bleeding would damage the master cylinder,
>>>>>unless you push the pedal all the way to the floor. Put a block of
>>>>>wood under the brake pedal to keep it from going too deep.
>>>>
>>>>that's an old wives tale. unless the bore of the cylinder is
>>>>/severely/ corroded, something that doesn't happen very much in the
>>>>aluminum cylinders used in hondas,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>First off, I messed up, being distracted by another debate. The OP's
>>>problem was a SPONGY pedal, which as others have already pointed out,
>>>means air in the lines. An amazing number of people run the MC too
>>>low while bleeding, suck air in, then hope beyond hope that they
>>>didn't really do that.
>>>
>>>Since the OP has ABS (ALB), that introduces an ugly variable to the
>>>problem: You have to bleed at /least/ three times to do a proper job:
>>>Once for the primary system, once for the ALB, then once more for the
>>>primary system to catch what came out of the ALB. and that's for EACH
>>>CIRCUIT.
>>>
>>>Secondly, corrosion DOES happen to ALL MCs if you don't flush that
>>>water out of there. Aluminum corrodes in the presence of water.
>>>Period.
>>
>>er, no. "aluminum" covers many hundreds of alloys and alloy products.
>>some corrode, some don't. brake cylinders don't corrode internally
>>until the fluid is /way/ contaminated. i got a cylinder from a
>>junkyard that had been exposed to rain - top of the reservoir off and
>>full of water - for months. the inside was gummed up with decayed
>>rubber, but it cleaned up and worked just fine with a new seal kit in
>>it.
>
>
>
>
> Ya got lucky. It takes time for corrosion to start.
>
>
>
>
>>now, you can get a problem where the steel piston and aluminum
>>cylinder have an electrolytic corrosion issue, but that doesn't effect
>>the sealing surface down the cylinder wall until it's at a really
>>advanced stage.
>>
>>steel cylinders otoh, /those/ things are famous for corrosion.
>>especially on the bottom of the cylinder where moisture collects.
>>
>>
>>>All it
>>>takes is a few little black spots in the bottom of the bore to scrape
>>>up the seals. Won't happen overnight, but it *will* happen.
>>
>>the black dots are usually just rubber.
>
>
>
>
> Nope. Corrosion. A pick will hang up in the holes. Seen it often enough,
> even in clutch master cylinders.
>
> No corrosion, no dots.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>there is no damage caused to the
>>>>seal by using the full cylinder travel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>There is. If there is corrosion, that is. Which there usually is with
>>>most cars after about 6-7 years or so.
>>>
>>>Well, in your neck of the woods, maybe not. SoCal is an almost unique
>>>driving environment. I've been there twice, and I can tell you that
>>>most people do not have it quite so easy as you do.
>>>
>>>Most owners never change their brake fluid. EVER. By the time you get
>>>the chance to service their neglect, the stuff is black and slimy,
>>>and under that are those evil little black dots of aluminum
>>>corrosion.
>>>
>>>George Macdonald used to recommend sucking out the old MC fluid with
>>>a turkey baster before bleeding. With a few more years under my belt,
>>>I can see why he said that.
>>
>>that's good advice - no need to push contaminated junk through the
>>whole system.
>
>
>
>
>
> If the fluid is that bad, the rest of the system is already in trouble.
>
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>after all, emergency braking
>>>>uses a lot more travel than standard braking - surely no one is going
>>>>to start saying that you shouldn't emergency brake as well?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Define "emergency brake". If you mean the parking brake lever, then
>>>that has nothing to do with the Master Cylinder. If you mean pressing
>>>the pedal to the floor because you had to to stop the car, then you
>>>have some pretty serious issues there.
>>
>>no, i mean panic stopping, not using the hand lever.
>
>
>
>
> Then what I said.

eh? where do i ever mention pressing to the floor in panic stopping???
normal braking gets you maybe 20% of travel. i doubt panic gets you 50%.

>
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
>>>>enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new
>>>>fluid, i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals
>>>>slightly,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Jim, that's an old wive's tale if I ever heard one. Those seals are a
>>>variant of neoprene.
>>
>>ok, now you're really pulling stuff out of your ass.
>>
>>http://www.sealingspecialties.com/materials.htm
>
>
>
>
> You're right. My memory is bad. I thought I had read they were neoprene.
> Been years since I looked that up.
>
> Looks like the actual stuff is ethylene propylene.
>
>
>
>
>
>>>They do not swell or shrink, they just wear out. They
>>>get flat on the outer lip.
>>
>>eh? yes they do wear, but do your homework! swelling & shrinkage is
>>absolutely an issue. you're expressing opinion as fact, and that
>>opinion is ill informed!
>
>
>
>
> Sorry, the seals do not "swell".

that's more ill informed opinion, not fact.

"_Elastomer Swelling_
The elastomers employed in the brake system must be able to adapt to the
type of brake fluid being used. Although a small amount of swelling is
desirable, it is imperative that it not exceed a rate of approximately
10%. Above this figure, the brake fluid has a negative effect on the
strength of the elastomer components."

isbn 0-8376-0333-1, p242.

> Unless the fluid gets contaminated with
> oil.

"Even minute levels of mineral-oil contamination (mineral-oil-based
brake fluid, solvents) in glycol-based brake fluid can lead to
destruction of rubber components (such as seals) and ultimately lead to
brake-system failure."

isbn 0-8376-0333-1, p242.

>
> Brake fluid is designed to prevent swelling, and seal materials are not
> water soluble.

it /is/ designed to cause a degree of swelling as that improves sealing.
just like it's got to lubricate, inhibit corrosion, and resist
boiling.

where do you get water solubility from???

jim beam wrote:

> jmattis@attglobal.net wrote:
>
>>> truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
>>> enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new fluid,
>>> i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals slightly,
>>> and if they're old enough, they shrink enough to leak. the fact that
>>> leakage happens a couple of weeks after a fluid change leads to a
>>> mistaken assumption that the system was "bled wrong". no. the seals
>>> were just old and were going to fail soon anyway.
>>>
>>
>>
>> A good reason not to bleed them at all, and I wish Honda would get off
>> of this.
>>
>> Ford did a study several years ago, showing that after 10 years never
>> being flushed, their brake systems had 1.4% water. They also found
>> that nothing short of 3.0% water was going to hurt anything.
>
>
> and ford are the biggest cheapskates in the industry - bar /none/.
>
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...23/ai_n6221217

Thanks for the link.

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns9708C6C39A8E5tegger@207.14.113.17...
>
>snip
>
> Not for Hondas. For our cars you bleed longest to shortest. Since Honda
> uses a diagonal split, it's RR, LF; LR, RF.
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

No, NOT for ALL Hondas. Once again, my 99 Prelude Service Manual (Published
by Honda Motor Co, Ltd, Service Publications Office, P/N 61S3002, 1384
pages -- ie. "Helms") clearly states and shows the diagram on pg 19-7 that
the sequence is
1) LF,
2) RF,
3) RR,
4) LR
for this split diagonal braking system. This ABS system uses the single
brake reservoir typical of most recent systems.

The original poster has a 91 Prelude which is probably similar to my
previous 90 Prelude ALB (first year Honda offered ABS under the Honda badge)
and as the OP indicated, has a second reservoir for the ABS function.
Therefore, I will not assume which bleeding sequence should be followed in
that case.

J.

The article at that link was very interesting -

Here is what I think I may start doing:
At every oil change I will get out the Turkey Baster, suck out the
master cylinder reservoir and put in clean brake fluid. By doing this I
will regularly reduce the amount of water, eliminate some contamination,
and replenish the corrosion inhibitors that may have become depleted. I
also will avoid all the the work and pitfalls of bleeding the system,
including damage that may or may not be caused by master cylinder piston
travel. My system will never be as clean as it would have been right
after a complete flush, but it will always be cleaner than it would have
been in the second year of a two year cycle. The cost would be minimal.


Sparky Spartacus wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> jmattis@attglobal.net wrote:
>>
>>>> truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
>>>> enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new
>>>> fluid,
>>>> i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals slightly,
>>>> and if they're old enough, they shrink enough to leak. the fact that
>>>> leakage happens a couple of weeks after a fluid change leads to a
>>>> mistaken assumption that the system was "bled wrong". no. the seals
>>>> were just old and were going to fail soon anyway.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A good reason not to bleed them at all, and I wish Honda would get off
>>> of this.
>>>
>>> Ford did a study several years ago, showing that after 10 years never
>>> being flushed, their brake systems had 1.4% water. They also found
>>> that nothing short of 3.0% water was going to hurt anything.
>>
>>
>>
>> and ford are the biggest cheapskates in the industry - bar /none/.
>>
>> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...23/ai_n6221217
>
>
> Thanks for the link.

Al wrote:
> The article at that link was very interesting -
>
> Here is what I think I may start doing:
> At every oil change I will get out the Turkey Baster, suck out the
> master cylinder reservoir and put in clean brake fluid. By doing this I
> will regularly reduce the amount of water, eliminate some contamination,
> and replenish the corrosion inhibitors that may have become depleted. I
> also will avoid all the the work and pitfalls of bleeding the system,
> including damage that may or may not be caused by master cylinder piston
> travel. My system will never be as clean as it would have been right
> after a complete flush, but it will always be cleaner than it would have
> been in the second year of a two year cycle. The cost would be minimal.

it's an interesting idea and certainly better than doing nothing. not
sure about the frequency thing, but again, doing it is better than nothing.

what it doesn't achieve is flushing the fluid in the brake calipers and
the rest of the system. i understand that the primary source of
moisture in the system is diffusion through the flex hoses - and if
you're reconditioned many calipers, you will have seen some disgusting
muck & rust accumulation resulting from that. other than a strip-down &
reconditioning exercise, the next best way to keep calipers in good
condition is to flush them out.

>
>
> Sparky Spartacus wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> jmattis@attglobal.net wrote:
>>>
>>>>> truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
>>>>> enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new
>>>>> fluid,
>>>>> i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals
>>>>> slightly,
>>>>> and if they're old enough, they shrink enough to leak. the fact that
>>>>> leakage happens a couple of weeks after a fluid change leads to a
>>>>> mistaken assumption that the system was "bled wrong". no. the seals
>>>>> were just old and were going to fail soon anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A good reason not to bleed them at all, and I wish Honda would get off
>>>> of this.
>>>>
>>>> Ford did a study several years ago, showing that after 10 years never
>>>> being flushed, their brake systems had 1.4% water. They also found
>>>> that nothing short of 3.0% water was going to hurt anything.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and ford are the biggest cheapskates in the industry - bar /none/.
>>>
>>> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...23/ai_n6221217
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the link.

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:vK6dnVOd1Y8kkOneRVn-jA@speakeasy.net:

> i understand that the primary source of
> moisture in the system is diffusion through the flex hoses


Diffusion which way? In or out?


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:vK6dnVOd1Y8kkOneRVn-jA@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>i understand that the primary source of
>>moisture in the system is diffusion through the flex hoses
>
>
>
> Diffusion which way? In or out?
>
>
in. if moisture [water] were diffusing out, it would be a self-purging
system. brake fluid is strongly hygroscopic.

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:Gp6dnfAkuIKKi-neRVn-
ug@speakeasy.net:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:vK6dnVOd1Y8kkOneRVn-jA@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>
>>>i understand that the primary source of
>>>moisture in the system is diffusion through the flex hoses
>>
>>
>>
>> Diffusion which way? In or out?
>>
>>
> in. if moisture [water] were diffusing out, it would be a self-purging
> system. brake fluid is strongly hygroscopic.
>


The source is the master cylinder, not the hoses. The master cylinder has
this great big opening on top, capped with a vented rubber chapeau. Air
enters there, along with whatever moisture it carries.

Water is heavier than brake fluid, so it travels downhill, eventually
ending up in the calipers and wheel cylinders. That's why the black
corrosion dots are always at the bottom of the bores.

The hoses are quite impermeable, you may believe me on that.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/