Honda Car Forum

"croweasley" <croweasley@prodigy.net> wrote in
news:c91a32e21e4e095a812014d92f90156c@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com:

> Myself and a friend of mine just put new brakes on my 1991 Honda Prelude
> Si. We did the rear brakes, replaced the calapers, rotors, pads and then
> bled them all, front and back. We bled them all 3 times and refilled the
> brake fluid in both the booster and the ALB system. After all this the
> brakes are still very soft. I have to press the pedal almost all the way
> down to get any stoping power.
>


You've toasted your Master Cylinder seals.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/maste...ace/index.html





--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"croweasley" <croweasley@prodigy.net> wrote in
news:c91a32e21e4e095a812014d92f90156c@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com:

> Myself and a friend of mine just put new brakes on my 1991 Honda Prelude
> Si. We did the rear brakes, replaced the calapers, rotors, pads and then
> bled them all, front and back. We bled them all 3 times and refilled the
> brake fluid in both the booster and the ALB system. After all this the
> brakes are still very soft. I have to press the pedal almost all the way
> down to get any stoping power.
>


You've toasted your Master Cylinder seals.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/maste...ace/index.html





--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message news:Xns9706CC00B38E6tegger@207.14.113.17...

> > Myself and a friend of mine just put new brakes on my 1991 Honda Prelude
> > Si. We did the rear brakes, replaced the calapers, rotors, pads and then
> > bled them all, front and back. We bled them all 3 times and refilled the
> > brake fluid in both the booster and the ALB system. After all this the
> > brakes are still very soft. I have to press the pedal almost all the way
> > down to get any stoping power.

> You've toasted your Master Cylinder seals.

He mentioned mushy and almost all the way down, not all the way to
the floor. This could be the symptoms of air in the system probably from
sucking air thru the piston seal at the wheels.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:TcOdnZmBwLDF3_PenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Burt S. wrote:

> > I don't believe normal bleeding would damage the master cylinder, unless
> > you push the pedal all the way to the floor. Put a block of wood under the
> > brake pedal to keep it from going too deep.

> that's an old wives tale. unless the bore of the cylinder is /severely/
> corroded, something that doesn't happen very much in the aluminum
> cylinders used in hondas, there is no damage caused to the seal by using
> the full cylinder travel.

I'd neglected to mention that this doesn't happen to all the vehicle
but only to the seriously neglected.

> truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
> enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new fluid,
> i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals slightly,
> and if they're old enough, they shrink enough to leak. the fact that
> leakage happens a couple of weeks after a fluid change leads to a
> mistaken assumption that the system was "bled wrong". no. the seals
> were just old and were going to fail soon anyway.

I worked on a couple cars with the OP's symptoms and all was
needed was a proper bleed. Yes, possible that the seal could shrink
but the cost of a new seal is too high (based on his request) to forget
a basic simple step.

I had a similar experience once. It turned out to be air in the system.
Finally fixed it by a careful and thorough bleed. The trick seemed to be
pushing the peddle forcefully to get rid of the trapped air.

--
Later 'gator

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"croweasley" <croweasley@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:c91a32e21e4e095a812014d92f90156c@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> Myself and a friend of mine just put new brakes on my 1991 Honda Prelude
> Si. We did the rear brakes, replaced the calapers, rotors, pads and then
> bled them all, front and back. We bled them all 3 times and refilled the
> brake fluid in both the booster and the ALB system. After all this the
> brakes are still very soft. I have to press the pedal almost all the way
> down to get any stoping power.
>

In article <f71fbd8ee21e1a7ec9bb96c804687974@localhost.talkab outautos.com>,
croweasley@prodigy.net says...
>
>
>will do, now i have another question. the other guy that was nice enough to
>reply said to check my seals and brake cylinder. if it is the seals, or for
>that matter the cylinder, how long can i go without worry.

You've already gone too far.

>i know that i
>need to do it ASAP because it is my brakes that i am talking about here.
>but i simply dont have the money to shell out and my girl has to use the
>car to get across town everyday. so will my brakes go out on me soon or at
>all or how long do i have? the cylinder is 150.00 bucks that i cant afford
>considering i skipped out on rent to shell out 120.00 into the rear
>cylinders this week. thanks again.

$150 is cheaper than having to fix the damage from an accident.
--------------
Alex

In article <TcOdnZmBwLDF3_PenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net> , nospam@example.net
says...

>that's an old wives tale. unless the bore of the cylinder is /severely/
>corroded, something that doesn't happen very much in the aluminum
>cylinders used in hondas, there is no damage caused to the seal by using
>the full cylinder travel. afterall, emergency braking uses a lot more
>travel than standard braking - surely no one is going to start saying
>that you shouldn't emergency brake as well?

The EB system is mechanical, completely different from a hydraulic system.
--------------
Alex

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:TcOdnZmBwLDF3_PenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Burt S. wrote:
>> "croweasley" <croweasley@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
>>
>> I don't believe normal bleeding would damage the master cylinder,
>> unless you push the pedal all the way to the floor. Put a block of
>> wood under the brake pedal to keep it from going too deep.
>
> that's an old wives tale. unless the bore of the cylinder is
> /severely/ corroded, something that doesn't happen very much in the
> aluminum cylinders used in hondas,


First off, I messed up, being distracted by another debate. The OP's
problem was a SPONGY pedal, which as others have already pointed out, means
air in the lines. An amazing number of people run the MC too low while
bleeding, suck air in, then hope beyond hope that they didn't really do
that.

Since the OP has ABS (ALB), that introduces an ugly variable to the
problem: You have to bleed at /least/ three times to do a proper job: Once
for the primary system, once for the ALB, then once more for the primary
system to catch what came out of the ALB. and that's for EACH CIRCUIT.

Secondly, corrosion DOES happen to ALL MCs if you don't flush that water
out of there. Aluminum corrodes in the presence of water. Period. All it
takes is a few little black spots in the bottom of the bore to scrape up
the seals. Won't happen overnight, but it *will* happen.




> there is no damage caused to the
> seal by using the full cylinder travel.


There is. If there is corrosion, that is. Which there usually is with most
cars after about 6-7 years or so.

Well, in your neck of the woods, maybe not. SoCal is an almost unique
driving environment. I've been there twice, and I can tell you that most
people do not have it quite so easy as you do.

Most owners never change their brake fluid. EVER. By the time you get the
chance to service their neglect, the stuff is black and slimy, and under
that are those evil little black dots of aluminum corrosion.

George Macdonald used to recommend sucking out the old MC fluid with a
turkey baster before bleeding. With a few more years under my belt, I can
see why he said that.



> after all, emergency braking
> uses a lot more travel than standard braking - surely no one is going
> to start saying that you shouldn't emergency brake as well?



Define "emergency brake". If you mean the parking brake lever, then that
has nothing to do with the Master Cylinder. If you mean pressing the pedal
to the floor because you had to to stop the car, then you have some pretty
serious issues there.



>
> truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
> enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new
> fluid, i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals
> slightly,




Jim, that's an old wive's tale if I ever heard one. Those seals are a
variant of neoprene. They do not swell or shrink, they just wear out. They
get flat on the outer lip.



> and if they're old enough, they shrink enough to leak. the
> fact that leakage happens a couple of weeks after a fluid change leads
> to a mistaken assumption that the system was "bled wrong". no. the
> seals were just old and were going to fail soon anyway.
>
>>
>> Bleed them in the correct order with the correct procedures. Tips:
>>
>> Tap on the piston or what not to release the air bubbles. Until the
>> person pressing the brake feels some overall firmness then you know
>> it's time to abort the bleeding. Have another to make sure that the
>> reservoir is always full.



Don't need that. Every eight full pedal pumps, refill the reservoir.



>> Try not to leave the fluid expose to air
>> for too long.


No problems there. It will be exposed to the air for the next few years in
your master cylinder anyway. The MC's vented, you know.




>> Use clear tubes, if not already. Bleed sequence:
>>
>> FL Driver side, RR rear passenger, FR front passenger, RL rear
>> passenger.


Not for Hondas. For our cars you bleed longest to shortest. Since Honda
uses a diagonal split, it's RR, LF; LR, RF.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> In article <TcOdnZmBwLDF3_PenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net> , nospam@example.net
> says...
>
>
>>that's an old wives tale. unless the bore of the cylinder is /severely/
>>corroded, something that doesn't happen very much in the aluminum
>>cylinders used in hondas, there is no damage caused to the seal by using
>>the full cylinder travel. afterall, emergency braking uses a lot more
>>travel than standard braking - surely no one is going to start saying
>>that you shouldn't emergency brake as well?
>
>
> The EB system is mechanical, completely different from a hydraulic system.
> --------------
> Alex
>
>
>
ok, terminology. i'm referring to panic stopping, not using the hand
lever. panic stopping uses /much/ more pedal travel than normal.

jmattis@attglobal.net wrote:
>>truth is, most brake systems don't get their fluid changed regularly
>>enough. contaminated fluid swells seals. when old seals get new fluid,
>>i.e. when the system is bled, the new fluid shrinks the seals slightly,
>>and if they're old enough, they shrink enough to leak. the fact that
>>leakage happens a couple of weeks after a fluid change leads to a
>>mistaken assumption that the system was "bled wrong". no. the seals
>>were just old and were going to fail soon anyway.
>>
>
>
> A good reason not to bleed them at all, and I wish Honda would get off
> of this.
>
> Ford did a study several years ago, showing that after 10 years never
> being flushed, their brake systems had 1.4% water. They also found
> that nothing short of 3.0% water was going to hurt anything.

and ford are the biggest cheapskates in the industry - bar /none/.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...23/ai_n6221217

>
> Nissan for instance does not recommend brake flushes. Had my I30t
> nearly 10 years and it never had one, thank you very much. No problems
> after 111,000 miles.
>
> I had the stealer bleed my '90 Integra twice, at 3 year intervals as
> recommended. Result was having to replace two master cylinders, both
> at my expense. You can bet it was never bled again after that. And,
> no further brake problems.
>
> If Hondas really need bleeding, to protect the ABS some will argue,
> then what they really need is a better design.
>
you won't find a single automotive textbook that agrees with you on that
one. brake fluids lubricate, suppress corrosion, transmit compression
and condition seals. /all/ those properties degrade with time and
moisture content. /i/ flush my fluid every year. and i have no
problems. your 3-year schedule is about the worst possible - it allows
the fluid to become thoroughly contaminated, then replaces it and the
seals re-size from a contaminated state. and so they leak. so, should
you /never/ change the fluid or do it regularly? if there's any chance
you'll ever need the vehicle worked on, [rhetorical] you need to have
the fluid flushed like it says in the book so you /don't/ have exactly
the problems you describe.