Honda Car Forum

My wife's 98 Accord V6 has a shimmy in the front end at low speeds. It
goes away after about 45mph. I took it to the shop that we bought the
tires and they checked the alignment. The final readings were as follows:

Left Front: Right Front:

Toe -0.05 Toe 0.15

Caster 2.7 Caster 2.2
Camber 0.3 Camber -0.4
Total Toe 0.10


Left Rear: Right Rear:

Toe -0.10 Toe 0.00

Camber -0.7 Camber -1.4

Obviously she's hit every pot hole in the state of Kentucky. Here's my
question.
The technician tells me that both of the rear control arms need to be
replaced due
to the fact that they come from the factory without the option of
adjustment. An
aftermarket control arm is necessary to correct the problem. Is this true??
From
the factory, they ship the car without being able to adjust the rear
alignment???
Please let me know if anyone else have experienced this.. Thanks...

"ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
news:YhqRe.79162$084.41838@attbi_s22:


<snip>


>
> Obviously she's hit every pot hole in the state of Kentucky. Here's my
> question.
> The technician tells me that both of the rear control arms need to be
> replaced due to the fact that they come from the factory without the
> option of adjustment. An aftermarket control arm is necessary to correct
> the problem. Is this true?? From the factory, they ship the car without
> being able to adjust the rear alignment???
> Please let me know if anyone else have experienced this.. Thanks...
>
>
>


Typically, only toe is adjustable front or rear.

If you're trying to adjust camber or caster, this is not possible, since
the factory assumes the frame and bushings will retain their original
states for life.

If the car has been in a collision bad enough to move suspension mount
points, or the bushings are severely worn, then it will not be possible to
ensure proper camber and caster without shimming, or elongation of holes,
or bushing replacement, or aftermarket parts.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

We've had the car since it was new so I know it wasn't wrecked. Do you
think the rear control arms really need to be replaced to fix the "lack of
adjustment
issue" that the technician explained the car to have??? Are the after market
parts adjustable?? Thanks for your help....


"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns96C3C1FC71DCtegger@207.14.113.17...
> "ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
> news:YhqRe.79162$084.41838@attbi_s22:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>
>> Obviously she's hit every pot hole in the state of Kentucky. Here's my
>> question.
>> The technician tells me that both of the rear control arms need to be
>> replaced due to the fact that they come from the factory without the
>> option of adjustment. An aftermarket control arm is necessary to correct
>> the problem. Is this true?? From the factory, they ship the car without
>> being able to adjust the rear alignment???
>> Please let me know if anyone else have experienced this.. Thanks...
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Typically, only toe is adjustable front or rear.
>
> If you're trying to adjust camber or caster, this is not possible, since
> the factory assumes the frame and bushings will retain their original
> states for life.
>
> If the car has been in a collision bad enough to move suspension mount
> points, or the bushings are severely worn, then it will not be possible to
> ensure proper camber and caster without shimming, or elongation of holes,
> or bushing replacement, or aftermarket parts.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
news:yZqRe.79217$084.45690@attbi_s22:

>
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C3C1FC71DCtegger@207.14.113.17...
>> "ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
>> news:YhqRe.79162$084.41838@attbi_s22:
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Obviously she's hit every pot hole in the state of Kentucky. Here's
>>> my question.
>>> The technician tells me that both of the rear control arms need to
>>> be replaced due to the fact that they come from the factory without
>>> the option of adjustment. An aftermarket control arm is necessary to
>>> correct the problem. Is this true?? From the factory, they ship the
>>> car without being able to adjust the rear alignment???
>>> Please let me know if anyone else have experienced this.. Thanks...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Typically, only toe is adjustable front or rear.
>>
>> If you're trying to adjust camber or caster, this is not possible,
>> since the factory assumes the frame and bushings will retain their
>> original states for life.
>>
>> If the car has been in a collision bad enough to move suspension
>> mount points, or the bushings are severely worn, then it will not be
>> possible to ensure proper camber and caster without shimming, or
>> elongation of holes, or bushing replacement, or aftermarket parts.
>>
>
>
>
> We've had the car since it was new so I know it wasn't wrecked. Do you
> think the rear control arms really need to be replaced to fix the
> "lack of adjustment
> issue" that the technician explained the car to have??? Are the after
> market parts adjustable?? Thanks for your help....
>


My first question (since I don't have a manual that covers your car):
Are your readings within specifications? The shop should give you the
acceptable ranges along with your particular readings.

Your front specs appear to be within allowable range as far as I can see
based on generic Honda setup practice.

The rear camber is the only question mark here. Typically, Honda sets its
independent rear suspensions to some slight negative camber (again, with a
range). Both your rear readings appear to be out of range, but this will
mean nothing outside of odd tire wear. Your readings are probably
indicative of bushing wear.

A shimmy in the front end in this case is unrelated to your alignment. You
have a tire wearing badly somewhere. What happens when you swap the tires
front-for-rear? Does the shimmy change? If you run the flat of your palm
over the tread in both directions, is there any noticeable unevenness or
bumpiness in one direction or both?

Have either of the inner CV joints boots ever split? Have the driveshafts
ever been changed?


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
news:yZqRe.79217$084.45690@attbi_s22:

> We've had the car since it was new so I know it wasn't wrecked. Do you
> think the rear control arms really need to be replaced to fix the
> "lack of adjustment issue" that the technician explained the car to
> have???


I never really answered your question, in hindsight. So...

No, it's not really necessary, unless you want you tires to last as long as
they're advertised to, or unless you drive extremely aggressively.



> Are the aftermarket parts adjustable??


Yes, you can get aftermarket parts that do just about anything. And in your
case, they may cost just about as much as replacing the worn bushings that
are causing your excessive negative camber.

I'd leave it alone, and just rotate my tires a bit more often, if it were
me.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Thaks for the reply. None of the 4 tires appear to have extreme "unusual"
wear. From the looks of the diagram,
The right front Toe is way out of spec.
The left rear toe is out of spec
The right rear camber is out of spec.
From what I can tell from your ealier post, the toe can be adjusted on the
front right.
But the Toe and Camber problems on the back cannot be adjusted without
replacing
the original parts with aftermarket "adjustable" parts. Is this correct??
Are you aware of any company that sells such parts??

CV boots look good, Drive Shafts are the original. 114K miles on the car.



"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns96C3CB104B29Ctegger@207.14.113.17...
> "ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
> news:yZqRe.79217$084.45690@attbi_s22:
>
>>
>> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
>> news:Xns96C3C1FC71DCtegger@207.14.113.17...
>>> "ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
>>> news:YhqRe.79162$084.41838@attbi_s22:
>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Obviously she's hit every pot hole in the state of Kentucky. Here's
>>>> my question.
>>>> The technician tells me that both of the rear control arms need to
>>>> be replaced due to the fact that they come from the factory without
>>>> the option of adjustment. An aftermarket control arm is necessary to
>>>> correct the problem. Is this true?? From the factory, they ship the
>>>> car without being able to adjust the rear alignment???
>>>> Please let me know if anyone else have experienced this.. Thanks...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Typically, only toe is adjustable front or rear.
>>>
>>> If you're trying to adjust camber or caster, this is not possible,
>>> since the factory assumes the frame and bushings will retain their
>>> original states for life.
>>>
>>> If the car has been in a collision bad enough to move suspension
>>> mount points, or the bushings are severely worn, then it will not be
>>> possible to ensure proper camber and caster without shimming, or
>>> elongation of holes, or bushing replacement, or aftermarket parts.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We've had the car since it was new so I know it wasn't wrecked. Do you
>> think the rear control arms really need to be replaced to fix the
>> "lack of adjustment
>> issue" that the technician explained the car to have??? Are the after
>> market parts adjustable?? Thanks for your help....
>>
>
>
> My first question (since I don't have a manual that covers your car):
> Are your readings within specifications? The shop should give you the
> acceptable ranges along with your particular readings.
>
> Your front specs appear to be within allowable range as far as I can see
> based on generic Honda setup practice.
>
> The rear camber is the only question mark here. Typically, Honda sets its
> independent rear suspensions to some slight negative camber (again, with a
> range). Both your rear readings appear to be out of range, but this will
> mean nothing outside of odd tire wear. Your readings are probably
> indicative of bushing wear.
>
> A shimmy in the front end in this case is unrelated to your alignment. You
> have a tire wearing badly somewhere. What happens when you swap the tires
> front-for-rear? Does the shimmy change? If you run the flat of your palm
> over the tread in both directions, is there any noticeable unevenness or
> bumpiness in one direction or both?
>
> Have either of the inner CV joints boots ever split? Have the driveshafts
> ever been changed?
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
news:TUrRe.79275$084.5970@attbi_s22:

> Thaks for the reply. None of the 4 tires appear to have extreme
> "unusual" wear. From the looks of the diagram,
> The right front Toe is way out of spec.
> The left rear toe is out of spec
> The right rear camber is out of spec.


Numbers. I need numbers. Factory-specified NUMBERS.


> From what I can tell from your ealier post, the toe can be adjusted on
> the front right.
> But the Toe and Camber problems on the back cannot be adjusted without
> replacing


Rear toe can be adjusted without parts replacement (or shimming). Camber
cannot.


> the original parts with aftermarket "adjustable" parts. Is this
> correct?? Are you aware of any company that sells such parts??



Lotsa places. Ask around at your local auto parts places.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

ESisson wrote:
> My wife's 98 Accord V6 has a shimmy in the front end at low speeds. It
> goes away after about 45mph. I took it to the shop that we bought the
> tires and they checked the alignment. The final readings were as follows:
>
> Left Front: Right Front:
>
> Toe -0.05 Toe 0.15
>
> Caster 2.7 Caster 2.2
> Camber 0.3 Camber -0.4
> Total Toe 0.10
>
>
> Left Rear: Right Rear:
>
> Toe -0.10 Toe 0.00
>
> Camber -0.7 Camber -1.4
>
> Obviously she's hit every pot hole in the state of Kentucky. Here's my
> question.
> The technician tells me that both of the rear control arms need to be
> replaced due
> to the fact that they come from the factory without the option of
> adjustment. An
> aftermarket control arm is necessary to correct the problem. Is this true??
> From
> the factory, they ship the car without being able to adjust the rear
> alignment???
> Please let me know if anyone else have experienced this.. Thanks...
>
>
take it to a shop that knows what they're doing. the figures you show
are not great, but they're not that bad. if you have a shimmy problem
i'd be sure the tires are balanced [it's common to lose weights], the
shocks are good, and that things like the tie rod ends are in good
condition. the whole suspension needs to be checked by a /competent/
tech that knows hondas.

to answer your aftermarket question, yes, parts are available, but based
on the figures you show, you really don't need them. if you want to
replace bushings because they are worn, be my guest, but i'd do that
before i went down the aftermarket road.

On 1 Sep 2005 00:43:07 GMT, "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

>"ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
>news:TUrRe.79275$084.5970@attbi_s22:
>
>> Thaks for the reply. None of the 4 tires appear to have extreme
>> "unusual" wear. From the looks of the diagram,
>> The right front Toe is way out of spec.
>> The left rear toe is out of spec
>> The right rear camber is out of spec.
>
>
>Numbers. I need numbers. Factory-specified NUMBERS.


I have the factory manuals. What can I look up for him?

Dick

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:23:54 -0700, Dick <LeadWinger> wrote:

>On 1 Sep 2005 00:43:07 GMT, "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>
>>"ESisson" <e.sisson@insightbb.com> wrote in
>>news:TUrRe.79275$084.5970@attbi_s22:
>>
>>> Thaks for the reply. None of the 4 tires appear to have extreme
>>> "unusual" wear. From the looks of the diagram,
>>> The right front Toe is way out of spec.
>>> The left rear toe is out of spec
>>> The right rear camber is out of spec.
>>
>>
>>Numbers. I need numbers. Factory-specified NUMBERS.
>
>
>I have the factory manuals. What can I look up for him?
>
>Dick

OK. Here they are anyway.

Camber - Front 0 degrees
Rear -0 degrees 30 minutes

Caster 2 degrees 48 minutes

Total Toe - Front 0 mm (0.in.)
Rear 2mm (1/1/16 in.)

These are the same for both the V6 and I4

Dick