Honda Car Forum

Hello everyone,

I'm resorting to asking for suggestions from cyberspace as I've asked
everyone else I can, and no one seems to know what's wrong with my car,
including the mechanics. I've given up dealing with my local Honda
dealership because I think they gouged me for yrs and performed many
unnecessary "repairs" that weren't a problem when I went in. They
couldn't find anything wrong with it, and now the honest mechanics
around the corner are stumped as well.

As a recap, I have a 92 Honda Accord station wagon with 310,000km and an
EFI system.

So here it goes:

--in warmer weather, there is a tendency for my Honda to have problems
firing up. Frosty, as I've named my car, has an EFI system and not a
carburetor.

--after starting up, the engine just won't catch, ie the tachometer goes
up, stutters, and then drops down to 0 rpms, stalling. The engine
simply fails to fully turn over, .

--this never happens on the first start up of the day. It could happen
once or more during the day, or not at all. When the engine won't turn
over, I might have to try 7 times before it finally fires up.
Eventually it always starts up. If I don't let some time pass after it
won't fire up, and try too soon afterwards, when I try again, I get a
sound like it's flooded, so I need to wait at least 1 min between attempts.

--nothing comes up in diagnostics. And of course, Frosty never acts up
when I take it in.

--the mechanics have looked at the wires, loose connections, coils,
delay in the timing in the electronic ignition, adding fuel injector
cleaner, etc. I wonder if there's a problem with the fuel injector or
fuel pump. A number of yrs ago, my fuel tank was replaced, and the car
has never been the same. Something makes me think, some other part near
the tank was "injured" at that time, and needs to be replaced. My
mechanics are so honest that they don't want to replace anything for
fear it's not what's broken. How refreshing. I'm sure I would have had
2 new parts had I gone to my local Honda dealership...(just in case you
think I'm bashing Honda, I'm not. I would buy a Honda again and again,
but I don't trust the service division in the small city I live in, and
it''s the only dealership we have. They couldn't find anything wrong
with my car when they had the chance either).

--last week, the injector unit was replaced. After filming the start up
problems with a digital camera so my mechanics could see it rather than
imagine what I described, they felt this made the most sense. I ok'd
the repair so I can't blame them. They seem really dejected at not
being able to identify the problem.

--it seems to be related to engine temperature, which could be
aggravated by the outside temps. I don't experience this in colder
weather. It did flare up in Mar after hibernating over the winter months.

--oddly enough, in cold weather, I have just as weird a symptom of
another problem. Instead of stalling after turning over, my engine revs
and revs like the choke is stuck when in Park. Unfortunately the car
has an EFI system. The engine justs vroom, vrooms, without my foot
being on the pedal. Very odd. It happens sporadically just like when
the car has problems firing up in warmer weather. The only way to stop
this is to shift it into gear. Hitting the gas pedal with my foot does
nothing.

So does anyone out there have any ideas what's going on with my car? I
love it, and want to keep Frosty on the road. But unless I get this
problem solved and sorted out, I won't be able to rely on my car.

Thanks for any suggestions you might have.

Please note that I've disguised my email address due to spam problems.
If you post to this NG would you mind contacting me at my work address
as well? I may not get a chance to check the NG each day, but I read
every email that is sent to me at work. Thanks.

kwilliamson@city.peterborough.on.ca

kathleen williamson wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm resorting to asking for suggestions from cyberspace as I've asked
> everyone else I can, and no one seems to know what's wrong with my car,
> including the mechanics. I've given up dealing with my local Honda
> dealership because I think they gouged me for yrs and performed many
> unnecessary "repairs" that weren't a problem when I went in. They
> couldn't find anything wrong with it, and now the honest mechanics
> around the corner are stumped as well.
>
> As a recap, I have a 92 Honda Accord station wagon with 310,000km and an
> EFI system.
>
> So here it goes:
>
> --in warmer weather, there is a tendency for my Honda to have problems
> firing up. Frosty, as I've named my car, has an EFI system and not a
> carburetor.
>
> --after starting up, the engine just won't catch, ie the tachometer goes
> up, stutters, and then drops down to 0 rpms, stalling. The engine
> simply fails to fully turn over, .
>
> --this never happens on the first start up of the day. It could happen
> once or more during the day, or not at all. When the engine won't turn
> over, I might have to try 7 times before it finally fires up.
> Eventually it always starts up. If I don't let some time pass after it
> won't fire up, and try too soon afterwards, when I try again, I get a
> sound like it's flooded, so I need to wait at least 1 min between attempts.
>
> --nothing comes up in diagnostics. And of course, Frosty never acts up
> when I take it in.
>
> --the mechanics have looked at the wires, loose connections, coils,
> delay in the timing in the electronic ignition, adding fuel injector
> cleaner, etc. I wonder if there's a problem with the fuel injector or
> fuel pump. A number of yrs ago, my fuel tank was replaced, and the car
> has never been the same. Something makes me think, some other part near
> the tank was "injured" at that time, and needs to be replaced. My
> mechanics are so honest that they don't want to replace anything for
> fear it's not what's broken. How refreshing. I'm sure I would have had
> 2 new parts had I gone to my local Honda dealership...(just in case you
> think I'm bashing Honda, I'm not. I would buy a Honda again and again,
> but I don't trust the service division in the small city I live in, and
> it''s the only dealership we have. They couldn't find anything wrong
> with my car when they had the chance either).
>
> --last week, the injector unit was replaced. After filming the start up
> problems with a digital camera so my mechanics could see it rather than
> imagine what I described, they felt this made the most sense. I ok'd
> the repair so I can't blame them. They seem really dejected at not
> being able to identify the problem.
>
> --it seems to be related to engine temperature, which could be
> aggravated by the outside temps. I don't experience this in colder
> weather. It did flare up in Mar after hibernating over the winter months.
>
> --oddly enough, in cold weather, I have just as weird a symptom of
> another problem. Instead of stalling after turning over, my engine revs
> and revs like the choke is stuck when in Park. Unfortunately the car
> has an EFI system. The engine justs vroom, vrooms, without my foot
> being on the pedal. Very odd. It happens sporadically just like when
> the car has problems firing up in warmer weather. The only way to stop
> this is to shift it into gear. Hitting the gas pedal with my foot does
> nothing.
>
> So does anyone out there have any ideas what's going on with my car? I
> love it, and want to keep Frosty on the road. But unless I get this
> problem solved and sorted out, I won't be able to rely on my car.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions you might have.
>
> Please note that I've disguised my email address due to spam problems.
> If you post to this NG would you mind contacting me at my work address
> as well? I may not get a chance to check the NG each day, but I read
> every email that is sent to me at work. Thanks.
>
> kwilliamson@city.peterborough.on.ca

The warm weather start-up problem most likely points to the main relay.
This is a common (but fairly inexpensive) problem on late 80s/early 90s
Hondas. I am surprised that your dealer never considered it.

As for the cold weather revs, my first guess is a faulty thermostat. My '93
Accord exhibited the same symptom at times, and replacing the thermostat
cured it. However, it could also be the idle air control valve or some
abnormality in the cooling system.

High Tech Misfit wrote:
> The warm weather start-up problem most likely points to the main relay.
> This is a common (but fairly inexpensive) problem on late 80s/early 90s
> Hondas. I am surprised that your dealer never considered it.
>

didnt that vintage also have distributor, ignitor, and ignition switch
problems as well? those are 3 possible weak links in the chain as well.

> As for the cold weather revs, my first guess is a faulty thermostat. My '93
> Accord exhibited the same symptom at times, and replacing the thermostat
> cured it. However, it could also be the idle air control valve or some
> abnormality in the cooling system.

SoCalMike wrote:

>> The warm weather start-up problem most likely points to the main relay.
>> This is a common (but fairly inexpensive) problem on late 80s/early 90s
>> Hondas. I am surprised that your dealer never considered it.
>>
>
> didnt that vintage also have distributor, ignitor, and ignition switch
> problems as well? those are 3 possible weak links in the chain as well.

Yeah, although the OP said that the problem is not there when she starts the
car for the first time on a given day--only on subsequent starts, and in
warm weather. The warm weather factor typically suggests the main relay.

I concur with the below posters... Try the main relay. It might be a
combination of things, but this is most likely. There are cold solder
joints in the relay that over time loosen up with vibration. There is a
pictoral how-to on the internet for anyone who is handy with a
soldering iron... can't quite remember where it is, but do a Google
search for "Honda main relay" and maybe "solder".

The main relay is located under the driver-side kick panel.

It's not all that expensive (~$100?) to just buy a new one if you don't
want to get into soldering, etc.

Good luck, and report back if you figure it out.

I appreciate all your responses. I had the relay changed on Fri--the
garage didn't charge me labour partly because they felt badly about
putting in what appears to be an unnecessary ignitor unit, and likely
because it wasn't an onerous job.

I know I'm going to be anxious for the next while since I was on pins
and needles all summer for the last two yrs. It looks like the weather
is going to be milder this week so maybe my confidence will build up.

Kathy


kathleen williamson wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm resorting to asking for suggestions from cyberspace as I've asked
> everyone else I can, and no one seems to know what's wrong with my car,
> including the mechanics. I've given up dealing with my local Honda
> dealership because I think they gouged me for yrs and performed many
> unnecessary "repairs" that weren't a problem when I went in. They
> couldn't find anything wrong with it, and now the honest mechanics
> around the corner are stumped as well.
>
> As a recap, I have a 92 Honda Accord station wagon with 310,000km and an
> EFI system.
> So here it goes:
>
> --in warmer weather, there is a tendency for my Honda to have problems
> firing up. Frosty, as I've named my car, has an EFI system and not a
> carburetor.
>
> --after starting up, the engine just won't catch, ie the tachometer goes
> up, stutters, and then drops down to 0 rpms, stalling. The engine
> simply fails to fully turn over, .
>
> --this never happens on the first start up of the day. It could happen
> once or more during the day, or not at all. When the engine won't turn
> over, I might have to try 7 times before it finally fires up.
> Eventually it always starts up. If I don't let some time pass after it
> won't fire up, and try too soon afterwards, when I try again, I get a
> sound like it's flooded, so I need to wait at least 1 min between attempts.
>
> --nothing comes up in diagnostics. And of course, Frosty never acts up
> when I take it in.
> --the mechanics have looked at the wires, loose connections, coils,
> delay in the timing in the electronic ignition, adding fuel injector
> cleaner, etc. I wonder if there's a problem with the fuel injector or
> fuel pump. A number of yrs ago, my fuel tank was replaced, and the car
> has never been the same. Something makes me think, some other part near
> the tank was "injured" at that time, and needs to be replaced. My
> mechanics are so honest that they don't want to replace anything for
> fear it's not what's broken. How refreshing. I'm sure I would have had
> 2 new parts had I gone to my local Honda dealership...(just in case you
> think I'm bashing Honda, I'm not. I would buy a Honda again and again,
> but I don't trust the service division in the small city I live in, and
> it''s the only dealership we have. They couldn't find anything wrong
> with my car when they had the chance either).
>
> --last week, the injector unit was replaced. After filming the start up
> problems with a digital camera so my mechanics could see it rather than
> imagine what I described, they felt this made the most sense. I ok'd
> the repair so I can't blame them. They seem really dejected at not
> being able to identify the problem.
> --it seems to be related to engine temperature, which could be
> aggravated by the outside temps. I don't experience this in colder
> weather. It did flare up in Mar after hibernating over the winter months.
>
> --oddly enough, in cold weather, I have just as weird a symptom of
> another problem. Instead of stalling after turning over, my engine revs
> and revs like the choke is stuck when in Park. Unfortunately the car
> has an EFI system. The engine justs vroom, vrooms, without my foot
> being on the pedal. Very odd. It happens sporadically just like when
> the car has problems firing up in warmer weather. The only way to stop
> this is to shift it into gear. Hitting the gas pedal with my foot does
> nothing.
>
> So does anyone out there have any ideas what's going on with my car? I
> love it, and want to keep Frosty on the road. But unless I get this
> problem solved and sorted out, I won't be able to rely on my car.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions you might have.
> Please note that I've disguised my email address due to spam problems.
> If you post to this NG would you mind contacting me at my work address
> as well? I may not get a chance to check the NG each day, but I read
> every email that is sent to me at work. Thanks.
>
> kwilliamson@city.peterborough.on.ca
>
>

Had you ever had the ignitor replaced before?

They don't last longer than maybe seven years.

If you never had it replaced before, then for your reference, you are
probably ahead overall financially and car-trouble wise at this point.

"kathleen williamson" <kamandorefusesrefuse@sympatico.ca> wrote
> I appreciate all your responses. I had the relay changed on Fri--the
> garage didn't charge me labour partly because they felt badly about
> putting in what appears to be an unnecessary ignitor unit, and likely
> because it wasn't an onerous job.
>
> I know I'm going to be anxious for the next while since I was on pins
> and needles all summer for the last two yrs. It looks like the weather
> is going to be milder this week so maybe my confidence will build up.
>
> Kathy
>
>
> kathleen williamson wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I'm resorting to asking for suggestions from cyberspace as I've asked
> > everyone else I can, and no one seems to know what's wrong with my car,
> > including the mechanics. I've given up dealing with my local Honda
> > dealership because I think they gouged me for yrs and performed many
> > unnecessary "repairs" that weren't a problem when I went in. They
> > couldn't find anything wrong with it, and now the honest mechanics
> > around the corner are stumped as well.
> >
> > As a recap, I have a 92 Honda Accord station wagon with 310,000km and an
> > EFI system.
> > So here it goes:
> >
> > --in warmer weather, there is a tendency for my Honda to have problems
> > firing up. Frosty, as I've named my car, has an EFI system and not a
> > carburetor.
> >
> > --after starting up, the engine just won't catch, ie the tachometer goes
> > up, stutters, and then drops down to 0 rpms, stalling. The engine
> > simply fails to fully turn over, .
> >
> > --this never happens on the first start up of the day. It could happen
> > once or more during the day, or not at all. When the engine won't turn
> > over, I might have to try 7 times before it finally fires up.
> > Eventually it always starts up. If I don't let some time pass after it
> > won't fire up, and try too soon afterwards, when I try again, I get a
> > sound like it's flooded, so I need to wait at least 1 min between
attempts.
> >
> > --nothing comes up in diagnostics. And of course, Frosty never acts up
> > when I take it in.
> > --the mechanics have looked at the wires, loose connections, coils,
> > delay in the timing in the electronic ignition, adding fuel injector
> > cleaner, etc. I wonder if there's a problem with the fuel injector or
> > fuel pump. A number of yrs ago, my fuel tank was replaced, and the car
> > has never been the same. Something makes me think, some other part near
> > the tank was "injured" at that time, and needs to be replaced. My
> > mechanics are so honest that they don't want to replace anything for
> > fear it's not what's broken. How refreshing. I'm sure I would have had
> > 2 new parts had I gone to my local Honda dealership...(just in case you
> > think I'm bashing Honda, I'm not. I would buy a Honda again and again,
> > but I don't trust the service division in the small city I live in, and
> > it''s the only dealership we have. They couldn't find anything wrong
> > with my car when they had the chance either).
> >
> > --last week, the injector unit was replaced. After filming the start up
> > problems with a digital camera so my mechanics could see it rather than
> > imagine what I described, they felt this made the most sense. I ok'd
> > the repair so I can't blame them. They seem really dejected at not
> > being able to identify the problem.
> > --it seems to be related to engine temperature, which could be
> > aggravated by the outside temps. I don't experience this in colder
> > weather. It did flare up in Mar after hibernating over the winter
months.
> >
> > --oddly enough, in cold weather, I have just as weird a symptom of
> > another problem. Instead of stalling after turning over, my engine revs
> > and revs like the choke is stuck when in Park. Unfortunately the car
> > has an EFI system. The engine justs vroom, vrooms, without my foot
> > being on the pedal. Very odd. It happens sporadically just like when
> > the car has problems firing up in warmer weather. The only way to stop
> > this is to shift it into gear. Hitting the gas pedal with my foot does
> > nothing.
> >
> > So does anyone out there have any ideas what's going on with my car? I
> > love it, and want to keep Frosty on the road. But unless I get this
> > problem solved and sorted out, I won't be able to rely on my car.
> >
> > Thanks for any suggestions you might have.
> > Please note that I've disguised my email address due to spam problems.
> > If you post to this NG would you mind contacting me at my work address
> > as well? I may not get a chance to check the NG each day, but I read
> > every email that is sent to me at work. Thanks.
> >
> > kwilliamson@city.peterborough.on.ca
> >
> >

"kathleen williamson" <kamandorefusesrefuse@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:xQJLe.1595$7R.62637@news20.bellglobal.com...
>I appreciate all your responses. I had the relay changed on Fri--the
>garage didn't charge me labour partly because they felt badly about putting
>in what appears to be an unnecessary ignitor unit, and likely because it
>wasn't an onerous job.
>
On the brighter side, ignitors are a fairly common failure in Hondas of that
age. Replacing it may save you a dead car one day.

Mike

| I have a 92 Honda Accord station wagon
engine model # ?

| I need to wait at least 1 min between attempts.
Your battery takes time to recover : if you fit ( easiest is to dashboard
clock's connector ) a volt meter, you'll see your battery's voltage fall
& slowly rise.

| I don't experience this in colder weather.
Touch your battery's terminals & sidewalls after >1 hr use, are they
warm / hot ? Any copper sulphate ( white powder ) on the +ve terminal
?

TE Cheah wrote:
> | I have a 92 Honda Accord station wagon
> engine model # ?
>
> | I need to wait at least 1 min between attempts.
> Your battery takes time to recover : if you fit ( easiest is to dashboard
> clock's connector ) a volt meter, you'll see your battery's voltage fall
> & slowly rise.

???

>
> | I don't experience this in colder weather.
> Touch your battery's terminals & sidewalls after >1 hr use, are they
> warm / hot ? Any copper sulphate ( white powder ) on the +ve terminal
> ?

copper sulfate is blue, not white.