Honda Car Forum

"Steve H" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote
> As a Mechanic, we get paid "by the job" Anyway to get answers to questions
> quickly to get the right conclusion helps.

I realize this is the plight of the blue collar worker: Coal miners,
electricians, merchant mariners, auto technicians, prostitutes, among
others, all are compelled to take greater bodily risks because "The Man"
(the companies that own you) needs his profit. And you need yours.

I actually misread your response. You're handling wires with intact (at
least by quick visual inspection) insulation and not known to be
particularly aged is one thing. That's just like me handling lamp cords at
home. But grabbing suspect wires is another.

Electrocution is a leading cause of death in the U.S. Navy. Probably not so
in the passenger auto repair business. I suppose people being crushed may
lead there, instead.

Just today there is a news report of four Boy Scout Leaders being
electrocuted. Now maybe this was an accident that was not preventable by
these four. Maybe not. We'll see.

> Water is a conductor. sprayed onto the wires it MAY cause a miss to start.

The water trick does not bother me. It's the philosophy of bodily taking an
electric shock (potentially far beyond that acquired by, saying rubbing
one's feet on the floor) when it's not necessary that I condemn.

> if it does there is a problem with the wires. Now I can also hook up 1500
> dollars of test equipment to read the spark and resistance in the wires.
But
> if I have a known bad wire to start with and I found it quickly, why waste
> time.
> The same with feeling the wires. A small jolt of electricity answers a
> question. Is the wire leaking?
> There are other things we figure out that sounds strange... but do they
> work? Yes. And that's what we get paid for.

I disagree that anyone should be paid to undergo unnecessary physical risk.
Indeed, the law says one may not consent to have physical harm done to them.

You may consider it macho. The typical male does. I consider it an
explanation of why insurance rates are higher for men (trickling over to
women, too, I assume, but they get prego, so it all balances out... I guess)
and families unnecessarily lose their daddies, sons, and brothers.

Voltage vs. amperage
I wouldn't touch house current. it can kill you. current from a car can't;
unless it's a hybrid. Voltage doesn't kill you: amperage does.
A GM HEI ignition bites allot harder than others. Do I always grab sp wires?
no. Usually, only when looking for a related problem. I don't unplug the
wire and feel the end, that bite would be allot harsher; by keeping a path
to ground, you eliminate some of the amperage.
Your getting bothered by something you don't understand. My boss is the same
way. He had a alarm system in the shop that he wanted to disable, but had no
understanding of the ac vs. dc voltage. (he is terrified of electricity)
With insulated cutters I removed the power wires without turning off the
current. easy stuff. don't fear what you don't understand. learn it and
understand it.
The risk has nothing to do with being macho; it has to do with getting
things done. I am more concerned with a lift falling on me than getting
shocked
As far as being "macho" is concerned; I have no piercing or tattoos. I don't
think the pain it worth it. I have nothing to prove or say to the world. How
about you?




--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Undercar Specialist

"Steve H" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote
> Voltage vs. amperage
> I wouldn't touch house current. it can kill you. current from a car can't;
> unless it's a hybrid. Voltage doesn't kill you: amperage does.

Good lord. More evidence to absolutely not trust auto technicians.

When discussing electrical safety no distinction whatsoever should be made
between whether it's voltage, amperage, or resistance that kills a person.

Body resistance does vary, depending on conditions and the individual. For
example, if it happens that one is sweaty, standing in a puddle of water
with wet but otherwise bare hands, body resistance is low. A lower voltage
will kill you than if you are completely dry.

Twelve to 14 DC volts (at the conventional car's battery and alternator
output, say) is unlikely to kill an adult working in typical conditions. I
wouldn't be so certain with a child. It could do injury to an adult, under
the right conditions. Then too is the risk of sparks when shorting out
terminals. Or if one is doing work on the alternator system: I wouldn't
assume that it was a mere 12 to 14 volts or all DC. It depends.

Anyone who works on automobiles should absolutely not go tinkering thinking
there is no risk of injury from electrical shocks.

As for the time you save by just running your hands over the wires: For
God's sake, for what you charge the time you spend doing any kind of serious
check of the wires could better be spent on simply slapping new OEM wires
into place.

You are not qualified to discuss electrical safety.

Elle, my ex-wife's father was killed by high volts in a radar unit, and
I understand your concern. My father, an electrical engineer, was
literally cut open by an unexpected 5,000 volt arc. On the other hand,
you are freaked out about routine shortcuts practiced thousands of
times a day, I wager. Its a lot more likely you'll lose a finger or
two to a fan belt, than get electrocuted under the hood.

It's not just lifts coming down on you, of course. Worst injury I ever
saw involved a mechanic under the car at just the wrong time: the
radiator exploded and drenched him with boiling hot coolant. The
hospital bills were six-figures, to give you an idea of the extent.

<jmattis@attglobal.net> wrote
> Elle, my ex-wife's father was killed by high volts in a radar unit, and
> I understand your concern. My father, an electrical engineer, was
> literally cut open by an unexpected 5,000 volt arc. On the other hand,
> you are freaked out about routine shortcuts practiced thousands of
> times a day, I wager.

I agree such shortcuts happen routinely.

I am sorry to hear of these tragic accidents within your family.

> Its a lot more likely you'll lose a finger or
> two to a fan belt, than get electrocuted under the hood.

I have no doubt this is true for a conventional car. Steve's caveat about
hybrids was a good one, IMO, though. I don't know the numbers on the
hybrid's battery and alternator system (someone can google or rattle them
off the top of their head), but of course they are going to be higher than a
conventional car's system. Therefore much more electrical caution is
appropriate. Could a hybrid's electrical system easily be lethal? Someone
post me some DC volts, for one, on the hybrid system, and I'll comment...

> It's not just lifts coming down on you, of course. Worst injury I ever
> saw involved a mechanic under the car at just the wrong time: the
> radiator exploded and drenched him with boiling hot coolant. The
> hospital bills were six-figures, to give you an idea of the extent.

That's a good one (albeit terribly sad one) too.

Perhaps we should have a "Safety Thread" sometime, where people describe
their worst mishaps with their Hondas or other cars, with bodily injury or
serious property damage resulting or almost resulting. Maybe it will help
keep us all as alert as possible.

(Although if some of the fellows here talk about how fast they have happily
driven their Hondas, the effect may be precisely the opposite of that
intended, so let's not go that direction!)

I offer my statements as opinion and nothing more. Folks make their own
choices on safety.

"Steve H" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:whsFe.489817$cg1.16813@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Voltage vs. amperage
> I wouldn't touch house current. it can kill you.


Depends. I've gotten shocks (accidentally) from straight 110VAC current.
Ever put a 9VDC battery on your tongue? Feels like that, only a lot BIGGER,
like supercharged electric worms wiggling through your body.

I know several guys who have received 600VAC industrial current shocks.
Knocked the hell out of them, but they survived to tell the tale.

Spark plug voltage is intermittent. It does not stick around long enough to
do damage. If 20,000VDC stuck around longer than 10ms, it might hurt you.


> current from a car
> can't; unless it's a hybrid. Voltage doesn't kill you: amperage does.


As does duration, which spark plug current does not have much of.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

I believe in the Hybrids wire the wiring coming form the Electrical portion
of the car's system is yellow. Cut it and it could/would kill you;
There working on what to do about the fire departments called out to a
hybrid accident. as they typically cut the car in half sometimes to get the
occupant out, cutting the wrong wire could kill the fireman.
now that's a problem.


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Undercar Specialist


"Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MXyFe.4849$0C.208@newsread3.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> <jmattis@attglobal.net> wrote
>> Elle, my ex-wife's father was killed by high volts in a radar unit, and
>> I understand your concern. My father, an electrical engineer, was
>> literally cut open by an unexpected 5,000 volt arc. On the other hand,
>> you are freaked out about routine shortcuts practiced thousands of
>> times a day, I wager.
>
> I agree such shortcuts happen routinely.
>
> I am sorry to hear of these tragic accidents within your family.
>
>> Its a lot more likely you'll lose a finger or
>> two to a fan belt, than get electrocuted under the hood.
>
> I have no doubt this is true for a conventional car. Steve's caveat about
> hybrids was a good one, IMO, though. I don't know the numbers on the
> hybrid's battery and alternator system (someone can google or rattle them
> off the top of their head), but of course they are going to be higher than
> a
> conventional car's system. Therefore much more electrical caution is
> appropriate. Could a hybrid's electrical system easily be lethal? Someone
> post me some DC volts, for one, on the hybrid system, and I'll comment...
>
>> It's not just lifts coming down on you, of course. Worst injury I ever
>> saw involved a mechanic under the car at just the wrong time: the
>> radiator exploded and drenched him with boiling hot coolant. The
>> hospital bills were six-figures, to give you an idea of the extent.
>
> That's a good one (albeit terribly sad one) too.
>
> Perhaps we should have a "Safety Thread" sometime, where people describe
> their worst mishaps with their Hondas or other cars, with bodily injury or
> serious property damage resulting or almost resulting. Maybe it will help
> keep us all as alert as possible.
>
> (Although if some of the fellows here talk about how fast they have
> happily
> driven their Hondas, the effect may be precisely the opposite of that
> intended, so let's not go that direction!)
>
> I offer my statements as opinion and nothing more. Folks make their own
> choices on safety.
>
>

>
> You are not qualified to discuss electrical safety.
>

And you are? You sound like you learned theory but not practicality.

Have you ever rewired a house? 110v AC and 220? installed breaker boxes?
Welders? AC compressors?
440 Volts?

Worked on any aircraft electronics lately?

Rewired a car? measured the voltage off the alt? battery? How about a 12v
generator?



We no longer have bench grinders in our shop because OSHA came in and
started fining all shops that had a grinder with the tool rest over 1/4 of
an inch from the wheel. The major corporation HQ pulled every one out from
all shops across the US. Now we use hand grinders. Probably more dangerous
in the long run. But someone is worried about the 1/4 inch may hurt us.

I respect electricity, but I don't fear it.


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Undercar Specialist

TeGGeR® wrote:
> "Steve H" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:whsFe.489817$cg1.16813@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>
>>Voltage vs. amperage
>>I wouldn't touch house current. it can kill you.
>
>
>
> Depends. I've gotten shocks (accidentally) from straight 110VAC current.
> Ever put a 9VDC battery on your tongue? Feels like that, only a lot BIGGER,
> like supercharged electric worms wiggling through your body.

Yeah, pretty weird, eh? I've only gotten zapped with 110VAC a couple of
times, and I don't care to repeat it. But like zapping your tongue with
a 9VDC battery, I've always thought of it more as a nuisance than
deadly, assuming you're standing on stable ground. The real safety
hazard with getting zapped by 110 is if you're on a ladder and jerk
back, thereby falling off the ladder and getting seriously hurt. Or
maybe if you have a weak heart or pacemaker.

Now, I wouldn't want to get zapped while standing in a pool of water on
a concrete floor... much prefer to have shoe insulation between me and
solid ground (in the electrical sense of the word). Anyway, those who
know what they're doing obviously take proper precautions in the first
place, but it helps to know what you're getting into in case of
accident--if you're on a ladder and get zapped, try not to fall off! <bg>

Steve H wrote:
> I believe in the Hybrids wire the wiring coming form the Electrical portion
> of the car's system is yellow. Cut it and it could/would kill you;
> There working on what to do about the fire departments called out to a
> hybrid accident. as they typically cut the car in half sometimes to get the
> occupant out, cutting the wrong wire could kill the fireman.
> now that's a problem.
>
>
how often do they have to cut through the floor pan, where all the wires
run?