Honda Car Forum

The last time I checked my rear brakes, they were fine but for the fact
that the parking brake arm rotates freely on the left side, without
engaging the piston. 94 Civic EX. The calipers show no evidence of brake
action problems: perfectly smooth in-and-out action on both rear
pistons--they even retract automatically when the brake pedal is
released. The evidence points to there being a break in the link between
the p-brake cam (which looks perfect on the top side, nice boot and
seal, no rust) and the piston, inside the caliper. Whether it's the pin,
sleeve piston, or adjusting bolt, I dunno--whatever it is, a reman
caliper is indicated.

So, I was planning to replace just the left rear caliper myself, but
decided to get a quote on having it done, whereupon I was told that they
do all such work in pairs for reasons of liability (and the guy didn't
have time to give me a quote if he wasn't guaranteed of the work--hah
hah--after quoting me $480 to do the exhaust from the cat on back).
Replacing brake stuff in pairs makes perfect sense where the calipers
are rusted out, or in the case of brake pads, but it really seems
unnecessary in this case--though I can understand the shop's policy.

Suggestions to the contrary?

Abeness <news@nada.x> wrote in news:J7SdndPwJKWdnQPfRVn-2g@rcn.net:

> The last time I checked my rear brakes, they were fine but for the fact
> that the parking brake arm rotates freely on the left side, without
> engaging the piston. 94 Civic EX. The calipers show no evidence of brake
> action problems: perfectly smooth in-and-out action on both rear
> pistons--they even retract automatically when the brake pedal is
> released. The evidence points to there being a break in the link between
> the p-brake cam (which looks perfect on the top side, nice boot and
> seal, no rust) and the piston, inside the caliper. Whether it's the pin,
> sleeve piston, or adjusting bolt, I dunno--whatever it is, a reman
> caliper is indicated.
>
> So, I was planning to replace just the left rear caliper myself, but
> decided to get a quote on having it done, whereupon I was told that they
> do all such work in pairs for reasons of liability (and the guy didn't
> have time to give me a quote if he wasn't guaranteed of the work--hah
> hah--after quoting me $480 to do the exhaust from the cat on back).
> Replacing brake stuff in pairs makes perfect sense where the calipers
> are rusted out, or in the case of brake pads, but it really seems
> unnecessary in this case--though I can understand the shop's policy.
>
> Suggestions to the contrary?
>


*IF* the good caliper is in fact actually good, and *IF* BOTH old and new
pistons move in AND out with EQUAL ease, and *IF* you are certain that
water has not penetrated under the parking brake shaft seal, then replacing
just the one is probably OK.

The problem is that if one piston can move more freely than the other, your
brakes will pull differently, which can cause the rear of your car to yaw
slightly on braking. This can be a safety issue in wet or icy weather, but
no more so than if you had poorly-maintained brakes to begin with.

Me, I wouldn't cheap out like that. I'd replace both (which I've actually
done).

Replacing the caliper is easy as pie, if you want to do it yourself.
1) Remove cover from master cylinder. Wet upper lip of cylinder with brake
fluid, and smooth Saran Wrap over the open MC, making certain that there
are no folds or kinks that cross the lip. Pull the Saran taut, and secure
with a rubber band
2) Remove parking brake clevis pin, and remove clevis from parking brake
shaft
3) With brake cleaner spray, spray all dirt off the banjo bolt at the back
of the caliper, and remove the bolt
4) Have a pan under the caliper to catch the fluid that will drip out.
Fluid will drip until the Saran Wrap is slightly concave, then it will stop
5) Flip old copper washer over, and install banjo bolt and hydraulic line
onto new caliper.
6) Place a piece of wood to keep the piston from being able to be ejected
from the bore, and bleed with the caliper OFF the mount bracket.
7) Bleed as you normally would, but turning and rapping the caliper with a
nylon hammer every few strokes to shock air bubbles free.
8) Reassemble to mount bracket and put parking brake back together
9) Done!

Because of the complex internals, there are lots of little nooks and
crannies that can trap air bubbles and make them hard to get rid of.
Shocking the caliper while turning it different ways is the only way of
dislodging them.

Good luck.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> *IF* the good caliper is in fact actually good, and *IF* BOTH old and new
> pistons move in AND out with EQUAL ease, and *IF* you are certain that
> water has not penetrated under the parking brake shaft seal, then replacing
> just the one is probably OK.

[reposting cuz it looks like my newserver burped when I posted this last
night, and never let it through]

According to the repair history *summary* I got from the previous owner,
the rear calipers were replaced at 111,500 miles (ca. March 2004). I'm
now at 118K. I'll take another look to be absolutely certain, but I'm
quite sure that a caliper with only 6.5K miles on it (very few of them
snow/salt miles) has a long life ahead of it. Near as I can guess, the
left rear must've been defective from the start, as the p-brake wasn't
working on that side when I got the car at 113K--I just didn't realize
it was a serious problem for some months, when I had a chance to
investigate. Unfortunately, I don't have the repair receipts and the
shop is 40 miles away, so I wasn't about to pursue it for such a small item.

Tegger, the tips about the saran wrap on the master cylinder and the
wood to prevent piston ejection during bleeding are worth their
electrons in gold... three cheers for the physics of vacuum! Thanks
again for awesome instrux. You're turning me into a reasonable
approximation of a brake dude.

Never hear of replacing calipers in pairs... although it sounds like a
good idea from the shops perspective... LOL

Professor
www.telstar-electronics.com

Abeness <news@nada.x> wrote in news:5qudnfpuDeddogLfRVn-3g@rcn.net:


>
> Tegger, the tips about the saran wrap on the master cylinder and the
> wood to prevent piston ejection during bleeding are worth their
> electrons in gold...


Do electrons have mass?


> three cheers for the physics of vacuum! Thanks
> again for awesome instrux. You're turning me into a reasonable
> approximation of a brake dude.
>


I just changed my Master Cylinder. It got old and started leaking due to
worn-out seals. New pages soon! Lots of photos!

BTW, after a few complaints from some (dialup) readers, I'm going to be
reworking the pages (especially the ones with lots of photos) so the pics
are a lot smaller in size to make the pages load faster. You would then
click on the small pics to get the big ones. Currently the pics are full
size, but show up small until you click on them.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> Abeness <news@nada.x> wrote in news:5qudnfpuDeddogLfRVn-3g@rcn.net:
>
>
>
>>Tegger, the tips about the saran wrap on the master cylinder and the
>>wood to prevent piston ejection during bleeding are worth their
>>electrons in gold...
>
>
>
> Do electrons have mass?

I doubt it. Should've written "gold coins". ;-)

> I just changed my Master Cylinder. It got old and started leaking due to
> worn-out seals. New pages soon! Lots of photos!

Youdaman! I'm planning to replace my clutch master cylinder this summer.
If I find the digital camera a friend gave me a while back, maybe I'll
document the process and join the effort.

Truth is, though, I got the replacement maybe 6-8 months ago before I
ran out of time, and it hasn't failed yet. Not leaking seriously,
either, just a little. I don't have to add fluid, but there is some
fluid present around the rubber boot at the pedal side of the engine
wall. Maybe I'll let it go for a while... oil up my new parts a little
more so they don't rust... ahhh.

<rant>
Sears.com is a royal PITA. I finally ordered a floor jack (for store
pickup) and some new metric sockets. They cancelled the jack and two of
the other three items cuz they didn't have it at the store!
Unbelievable. They didn't think to change it to "ship from wherever to
the store". Duh. Now they're gonna call in 6-12 hours to discuss? Guess
I'll never do THAT again...
</rant>

Abeness <news@nada.x> wrote in news:YvudnQwk_69nJALfRVn-qg@rcn.net:

> TeGGeR® wrote:
>> Abeness <news@nada.x> wrote in news:5qudnfpuDeddogLfRVn-3g@rcn.net:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Tegger, the tips about the saran wrap on the master cylinder and the
>>>wood to prevent piston ejection during bleeding are worth their
>>>electrons in gold...
>>
>>
>>
>> Do electrons have mass?
>
> I doubt it. Should've written "gold coins". ;-)
>
>> I just changed my Master Cylinder. It got old and started leaking due
>> to worn-out seals. New pages soon! Lots of photos!
>
> Youdaman! I'm planning to replace my clutch master cylinder this
> summer. If I find the digital camera a friend gave me a while back,
> maybe I'll document the process and join the effort.


Excellent. The nore the merrier. Usenet thrives on collective input,
individually gathered and presented, of course.

Since this was my first time, I made a few mistakes that cost some time.
Details to follow.

Main tip: Unbolt the MC from the booster FIRST, THEN undo the hydraulics.
And cover the alternator to keep crud from falling into it.

Also, move as many cables as far as possible out of the way and tie them in
place as far away as you can, using multiple zip-ties daisy-chained
together as needed. The more room you have to work in, the better.

And you may need to adjust the master cylinder pushrod after. This part is
a minor adventure.

Photos soon...


>
> Truth is, though, I got the replacement maybe 6-8 months ago before I
> ran out of time, and it hasn't failed yet. Not leaking seriously,
> either, just a little. I don't have to add fluid, but there is some
> fluid present around the rubber boot at the pedal side of the engine
> wall.


Leave it too long and the fluid will dribble into the booster and eat the
diaphragm. I found a tiny bit inside the "cup" of the booster. Whether or
not this was due to leakage through the rear seal I do not know.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/...eal-remove.jpg

Some probing revealed that this leakage had not risen to the point where it
had got inside the booster itself.


> Maybe I'll let it go for a while...


Fix it now. Neglect can cost you. It's easy. Really.





--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Abeness wrote:
> TeGGeR® wrote:
>
>> Abeness <news@nada.x> wrote in news:5qudnfpuDeddogLfRVn-3g@rcn.net:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Tegger, the tips about the saran wrap on the master cylinder and the
>>> wood to prevent piston ejection during bleeding are worth their
>>> electrons in gold...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Do electrons have mass?
>
>
> I doubt it. Should've written "gold coins". ;-)
>
>> I just changed my Master Cylinder. It got old and started leaking due
>> to worn-out seals. New pages soon! Lots of photos!
>
>
> Youdaman! I'm planning to replace my clutch master cylinder this summer.
> If I find the digital camera a friend gave me a while back, maybe I'll
> document the process and join the effort.
>
> Truth is, though, I got the replacement maybe 6-8 months ago before I
> ran out of time, and it hasn't failed yet. Not leaking seriously,
> either, just a little. I don't have to add fluid, but there is some
> fluid present around the rubber boot at the pedal side of the engine
> wall. Maybe I'll let it go for a while... oil up my new parts a little
> more so they don't rust... ahhh.

*do not* *do not* *do not* oil brake parts!!! it rots the seal rubbers
big time. if you want to use a lube, make sure it's a silicone lube.
and beware that "synthetic" is not necessarily silicone. "contains"
silicone is not good enough either. needs to 100% silicone.

>
> <rant>
> Sears.com is a royal PITA. I finally ordered a floor jack (for store
> pickup) and some new metric sockets. They cancelled the jack and two of
> the other three items cuz they didn't have it at the store!
> Unbelievable. They didn't think to change it to "ship from wherever to
> the store". Duh. Now they're gonna call in 6-12 hours to discuss? Guess
> I'll never do THAT again...
> </rant>

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:b6idnb7WCJjNWQLfRVn-gw@speakeasy.net:

> Abeness wrote:

>oil up my new parts a
>> little more so they don't rust... ahhh.
>
> *do not* *do not* *do not* oil brake parts!!! it rots the seal
> rubbers big time. if you want to use a lube, make sure it's a
> silicone lube. and beware that "synthetic" is not necessarily
> silicone. "contains" silicone is not good enough either. needs to
> 100% silicone.


Sil-Glyde (watch the spelling!) is OK and is readily available.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9669E755725F7tegger@207.14.113.17:


>
> Main tip: Unbolt the MC from the booster FIRST, THEN undo the
> hydraulics.


But crack the hydraulic seals first, otherwise you may have trouble
exerting enough force to break it loose with the MC unbolted.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/