Honda Car Forum

[w12332]
Hi everyone. Here you are, I'm saring some ones I found useful:

10 best cars for 2005:
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...D04OTE0&a=Y2Fy

"All 10Best nominees are either new or significantly updated for 2005".
* Categories are:
Best Sports Sedan
Best Luxury Sedan
Best Luxury Sports Sedan
Best Performance Car
Best Full-Size Sedan
Best Wagon
Best Muscle Car
Best Family Sedan
Best Sports Coupe
Best Luxury Sports Car
Find out who are the ones selected!.

-

Consumer Rights Trouble:
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...C5odG1s&a=Y2Fy

"75% of people surveyed would rather go to the dentist than a car
dealership"
....are you one of those? Be one of them no more with this really useful
articles collection.
Covers many worthy topics such as:
· The Art Of Car Buying
· Car Buying Vocabulary
· Used Car Options
· Car Trade In
· Should You Lease Or Purchase?
· Other Resources
Definitelly a must for any person who is into cars.

-

Car Safety Seats Guide.
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...GUuaHRt&a=Y2Fy

Really "meaty" article with plenty of information, comparisons, etc.

· Important safety rules
· More!

____________________
URls are cloaked since some sites don't like inbound links from USENET
posts.
BTW, Visit http://www.gnosis-usa.com for spiritual assistance.
Have fun and enjoy your life in a good manner.

>Consumer Rights Trouble:
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...ZWdhbC9jb25zdW
1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy

>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
> to the dentist than a car dealership"

Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need a
new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my best
to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature USAA's (=
my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like dealing
with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with these
mostly misogynist idiots.

"Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:tBQme.2912$s64.2306@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net:

>>Consumer Rights Trouble:
> http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...vbS9sZWdhbC9jb
> 25zdW 1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy
>
>>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
>> to the dentist than a car dealership"
>
> Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next
> need a new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to
> do my best to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest
> feature USAA's (= my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car
> salesmen don't like dealing with a woman buying economy and I sure as
> heck loathe dealing with these mostly misogynist idiots.
>
>
>


Why are they "mysogynist"? I am curious as to your evidence.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Elle wrote:
>>Consumer Rights Trouble:
>
> http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...ZWdhbC9jb25zdW
> 1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy
>
>
>>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
>>to the dentist than a car dealership"
>
>
> Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need a
> new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my best
> to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature USAA's (=
> my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like dealing
> with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with these
> mostly misogynist idiots.
>
do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their homework?

why not find yourself a chick sales person. that's what my girlfriend
did. got herself a good deal too.

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
E wrote
> > Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next
> > need a new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to
> > do my best to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest
> > feature USAA's (= my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car
> > salesmen don't like dealing with a woman buying economy and I sure as
> > heck loathe dealing with these mostly misogynist idiots.
>
>
> Why are they "mysogynist"? I am curious as to your evidence.

I have read two articles about guys in the business. I worked in the
business. I took some classes with boys in the business. Reports are that
males salesmen do take advantage (financially speaking, and so to speak) of
women with more success than they take advantage of men. I have studied with
men in engineering. I have witnessed the porn hanging in car dealerships,
and the vulgar talk about women. They are mostly misogynist, like I said.

I received an incredibly crude, vulgar email from someone in this group whom
you evidently adore, because I asked technical questions and he couldn't
answer them all. So this was his response.

There are exceptions, but I would have been better off in my lifetime
knowing this tendency in advance.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> Elle wrote:
> >>Consumer Rights Trouble:
> >
> >
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...ZWdhbC9jb25zdW
> > 1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy
> >
> >
> >>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
> >>to the dentist than a car dealership"
> >
> >
> > Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need
a
> > new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my
best
> > to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature USAA's
(=
> > my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like dealing
> > with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with these
> > mostly misogynist idiots.
> >
> do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their
homework?

I think in the final analysis for many men any "challenge" from a female is
a challenge to their manhood. Of course, "challenge" can take the form of
simply not automatically deferring to him on everything. In other words, the
man expects subservience. Anything less makes him feel less. This reality
indicates an underlying disdain for women, regardless of the women's brains.

It's about power, both on the political level and the personal level. With
exceptions, of course. Also, there certainly are women who will use their
feminine wiles to turn the tables: Sex (or sexuality or sex appeal or
similar) can be used as a mighty cudgel. I'm sure you've seen women pull
this. It's their right and natural to find a way to attain power, just as
it's men's "right" and natural to find ways to hold the power as often as
possible.

> why not find yourself a chick sales person. that's what my girlfriend
> did. got herself a good deal too.

Yes, I am open to that possibility. I figure my chances are better with a
female salesperson, though of course it's a cutthroat business, and surely
they will all go the way of, say, female real estate saleswomen. But at
least hearing, say, the F-word from a woman tends to be less likely than
with a man, where it's such an accepted part of male vocabulary that I'm
sure some here are baffled. No big deal. Yada.

On the nth hand, women do tend to be less aggressive than men, whereas I'm
probably more aggressive in getting what I want, so maybe I'd do well
against a female salesperson.

Nah. I like the anonymity of negotiating via the internet. Got a great deal
on a condo I sold several years ago, doing almost every word of the
negotiations via email.

I will say that this newsgroup is pretty darn gender-neutral (occasional
RTFM type-language aside, though if used discreetly can be quite a hoot)
when it comes to helping people with their car woes, and that is rewarding.

Peace. Love. More anti-seize; better synthetic oil; thank god the problems
90s Hondas have are heavily limited to the distributor; main relay; a few
minor valves.

Elle wrote:
>>Consumer Rights Trouble:
>
> http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...ZWdhbC9jb25zdW
> 1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy
>
>
>>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
>>to the dentist than a car dealership"
>
>
> Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need a
> new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my best
> to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature USAA's (=
> my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like dealing
> with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with these
> mostly misogynist idiots.
>
>
AAA, sams club, costco, and autobytel all offer alternatives too. pretty
much the same deal all around.

"Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:_9Sme.2952$s64.2869@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net:

> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> E wrote
>> > Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next
>> > need a new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going
>> > to do my best to do it all by email, with a little help from the
>> > latest feature USAA's (= my insurer's) car buying service offers.
>> > Car salesmen don't like dealing with a woman buying economy and I
>> > sure as heck loathe dealing with these mostly misogynist idiots.
>>
>>
>> Why are they "mysogynist"? I am curious as to your evidence.
>
> I have read two articles about guys in the business. I worked in the
> business. I took some classes with boys in the business. Reports are
> that males salesmen do take advantage (financially speaking, and so to
> speak) of women with more success than they take advantage of men.


"Reports are..."? You mean those articles the newspapers occasionally print
where they send a male and a female shopper into a delaership one after the
other and report their reception?

It's been my experience, many times now, that car salesmen AND saleswomen
are ALL sharks. Women shoppers tend to be an easy mark because they are
less likely to resist pressure, EVEN from saleswomen. The saleswomen are
after your money exactly as the men. No different. It's the money, not you.

Most women are also not used to high-pressure situations of the sort found
in car deals, and do not have the mental makeup to *want* to deal with that
pressure. And then there's the female tendency to want to avoid
confrontation and want to get other people to like them, which makes them
more likely to agree to something just to get a sticky issue past. My wife
was very happy to let me do the searching and negotiating when we were
replacing her MR2.

Women tend as a class to be far, far less knowledgeable about cars than
men, so they are easier to hoodwink. Many men know a *little* about cars,
but most women know ZERO. Just because you are an exception does not mean
most other women are like you. They are most assuredly NOT. Most women have
absolutely ZERO interest in cars.


> I
> have studied with men in engineering.


I've been around engineers most of my life.



> I have witnessed the porn
> hanging in car dealerships, and the vulgar talk about women. They are
> mostly misogynist, like I said.


You don't know much about guys, it sounds. Porn and vulgar talk may be
distasteful to many women, but neither even remotely suggests "misogyny".
They are part-and-parcel of male life in varying degrees, and has nothing
to do with any respect we feel and exhibit for the women in our lives. The
lower the socioeconomic class, the more prevalent explicitly vulgar
behavior is evident.

This is one reason men had male-only clubs. Before the feminists started
meddling.


>
> I received an incredibly crude, vulgar email from someone in this
> group whom you evidently adore, because I asked technical questions
> and he couldn't answer them all. So this was his response.



Now that's hardly fair. First off, you're making an allegation without
proof or names, and secondarily somehow insinuating that I bear some sort
of responsibility in the matter.

I am not responsible for email somebody else sends you. What if I've never
seen this side of whoever it is you're talking about?



>
> There are exceptions, but I would have been better off in my lifetime
> knowing this tendency in advance.
>


Life is a harsh teacher and hindsight is 20-20. I can (and will) say the
same about other matters that have hurt me deeply as well.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Elle wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
>
>>Elle wrote:
>>
>>>>Consumer Rights Trouble:
>>>
>>>
> http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...ZWdhbC9jb25zdW
>
>>>1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
>>>>to the dentist than a car dealership"
>>>
>>>
>>>Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need
>
> a
>
>>>new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my
>
> best
>
>>>to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature USAA's
>
> (=
>
>>>my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like dealing
>>>with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with these
>>>mostly misogynist idiots.
>>>
>>
>>do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their
>
> homework?
>
> I think in the final analysis for many men any "challenge" from a female is
> a challenge to their manhood. Of course, "challenge" can take the form of
> simply not automatically deferring to him on everything. In other words, the
> man expects subservience. Anything less makes him feel less. This reality
> indicates an underlying disdain for women, regardless of the women's brains.

with the greatest of respect, there are two scenarios here, not just the
one you describe. the first you've said, and in that respect, hey, give
them what they deserve. the second is that the person on the other end
of this transaction is picking up on something /you/ are bringing to the
table & reacting accordingly. based on our past conversations, i give
that a more than 50% liklihood of that being the case. unfortunately,
if that reaction is received through a "men are mysoginists" filter,
there's going to be a negative feedback loop making the problem worse,
not better. and the situation can quickly get out of control leaving
you with a lot of bad feelings. here's not the place to get into the
head shrinking thing, but as a guy that likes and respects your
engineering mind, i think this is worth looking into. staying where you
are can hold your career back. looking into it can help you move on and
achieve a lot more success an many areas of your life, not just work.

>
> It's about power, both on the political level and the personal level. With
> exceptions, of course. Also, there certainly are women who will use their
> feminine wiles to turn the tables: Sex (or sexuality or sex appeal or
> similar) can be used as a mighty cudgel. I'm sure you've seen women pull
> this. It's their right and natural to find a way to attain power, just as
> it's men's "right" and natural to find ways to hold the power as often as
> possible.
>
>
>>why not find yourself a chick sales person. that's what my girlfriend
>>did. got herself a good deal too.
>
>
> Yes, I am open to that possibility. I figure my chances are better with a
> female salesperson, though of course it's a cutthroat business, and surely
> they will all go the way of, say, female real estate saleswomen. But at
> least hearing, say, the F-word from a woman tends to be less likely than
> with a man, where it's such an accepted part of male vocabulary that I'm
> sure some here are baffled. No big deal. Yada.
>
> On the nth hand, women do tend to be less aggressive than men, whereas I'm
> probably more aggressive in getting what I want, so maybe I'd do well
> against a female salesperson.
>
> Nah. I like the anonymity of negotiating via the internet. Got a great deal
> on a condo I sold several years ago, doing almost every word of the
> negotiations via email.
>
> I will say that this newsgroup is pretty darn gender-neutral (occasional
> RTFM type-language aside, though if used discreetly can be quite a hoot)
> when it comes to helping people with their car woes, and that is rewarding.
>
> Peace. Love. More anti-seize; better synthetic oil; thank god the problems
> 90s Hondas have are heavily limited to the distributor; main relay; a few
> minor valves.
>
>

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
E wrote
> > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> > E wrote
> >> > Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next
> >> > need a new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going
> >> > to do my best to do it all by email, with a little help from the
> >> > latest feature USAA's (= my insurer's) car buying service offers.
> >> > Car salesmen don't like dealing with a woman buying economy and I
> >> > sure as heck loathe dealing with these mostly misogynist idiots.
> >>
> >>
> >> Why are they "mysogynist"? I am curious as to your evidence.
> >
> > I have read two articles about guys in the business. I worked in the
> > business. I took some classes with boys in the business. Reports are
> > that males salesmen do take advantage (financially speaking, and so to
> > speak) of women with more success than they take advantage of men.
>
>
> "Reports are..."? You mean those articles the newspapers occasionally
print
> where they send a male and a female shopper into a delaership one after
the
> other and report their reception?

I had in mind a specific report, covering a large data sample, showing women
pay X amount more than men, and it was not a small amount.

> It's been my experience, many times now, that car salesmen AND saleswomen
> are ALL sharks. Women shoppers tend to be an easy mark because they are
> less likely to resist pressure, EVEN from saleswomen. The saleswomen are
> after your money exactly as the men. No different. It's the money, not
you.

I understand your point, but my sense is that the salesmen treat women
worse, and still get more money. Go to another dealership, it's the same
thing. A woman is stuck. She has to be much more aggressive than a men.

> Most women are also not used to high-pressure situations of the sort found
> in car deals, and do not have the mental makeup to *want* to deal with
that
> pressure. And then there's the female tendency to want to avoid
> confrontation and want to get other people to like them, which makes them
> more likely to agree to something just to get a sticky issue past.

I think this is true, but see above.

> My wife
> was very happy to let me do the searching and negotiating when we were
> replacing her MR2.
>
> Women tend as a class to be far, far less knowledgeable about cars than
> men, so they are easier to hoodwink. Many men know a *little* about cars,
> but most women know ZERO. Just because you are an exception does not mean
> most other women are like you. They are most assuredly NOT. Most women
have
> absolutely ZERO interest in cars.

Also true.

> > I
> > have studied with men in engineering.
>
>
> I've been around engineers most of my life.
>
>
>
> > I have witnessed the porn
> > hanging in car dealerships, and the vulgar talk about women. They are
> > mostly misogynist, like I said.
>
>
> You don't know much about guys, it sounds. Porn and vulgar talk may be
> distasteful to many women, but neither even remotely suggests "misogyny".

You don't know much about men.

> They are part-and-parcel of male life in varying degrees, and has nothing
> to do with any respect we feel and exhibit for the women in our lives. The
> lower the socioeconomic class, the more prevalent explicitly vulgar
> behavior is evident.

Oh yes it does.

> This is one reason men had male-only clubs. Before the feminists started
> meddling.

Oh now I get it.

> > I received an incredibly crude, vulgar email from someone in this
> > group whom you evidently adore, because I asked technical questions
> > and he couldn't answer them all. So this was his response.
>
>
>
> Now that's hardly fair.

The truth is ALWAYS fair, idiot.

> First off, you're making an allegation without
> proof or names, and secondarily somehow insinuating that I bear some sort
> of responsibility in the matter.

I am not requiring you to believe me.

If you want a name, email me.

I did not save the message.

As for your part, you'll probably defend the guy. After all, all he sent me
was a little crude vulgar porn that belittled women, and you feel this is
perfectly right.

In fact, the law says that under slightly different circumstances, it's
quite illegal.

> I am not responsible for email somebody else sends you. What if I've never
> seen this side of whoever it is you're talking about?
>
>
>
> >
> > There are exceptions, but I would have been better off in my lifetime
> > knowing this tendency in advance.
> >
>
>
> Life is a harsh teacher and hindsight is 20-20. I can (and will) say the
> same about other matters that have hurt me deeply as well.

Nice try, but in fact the law says that porn in the workplace; raping one's
wife; assaulting a cadet in front of other cadets at the federal service
academies is illegal.

I have your number, though, Tegger. Like many political issues, it's all
about your problems. Others have not been hurt.