Honda Car Forum

The other day, I had an opportunity to drive a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid
from Albany, NY to Watertown, NY and back...about 360 miles total. My
personal car is a 1998 Honda Civic sedan, so the cars were quite
similar in size and feel. This is the first time that I have ever had
an extended ride in a hybrid, and the first time I have driven one,
with the exception of a quick run around the block in a friend's new
Toyota Prius.

The Civic hybrid is identical inside to the standard Civic sedan. In
other words, for a compact car, it offers substantial comfort and room,
including more legroom in the back seat than many mid or full sized
cars. The trunk remains fairly roomy, though some of the space is taken
up by the hybrid battery pack.


The car accelerates wonderfully with the battery assist...much better
than my conventional Civic, which in turn accelerates well. There is no
hesitation, slowing or increased RPM on upgrades, as the battery
assists kicks in to maintain speed without taxing the engine. In local
traffic, the car shuts off while stopped and then accelerates instantly
with the battery assist when you hit the gas. In short, it was a
pleasure to drive, with Honda's wonderful handling along with excellent
acceleration.


On the dashboard, there is a gage that deals with the hybrid details.
It indicates the level of battery charge and indicates whether and how
much the battery is charging or assisting. The latter is with an
electronic dial that swings one way then the other...fascinating to
watch. There is also a toggle between two different trip mileage
settings and the car's odometer. You can reset either trip mileage
setting at any time and the car will compute the average miles per
gallon since the reset.

The car is advertised to get about 48 miles per gallon. The trip
mileage calculator started low as the car took a little time to charge
up the battery, and then took off. While on the Thruway to Utica, it
told me that I was averaging about 38 miles per gallon. While on the
slower Route 12 to Watertown, the average eventually went up to 41
miles per gallon. It does better at lower speeds than at 70, and
better still in stop and go traffic.

But I wonder about a few things associated with the calculated trip
mileage.

I thought the mileage should have been better. A few thoughts on that.
One, the entire trip was in wet windy weather. The headlights,
windshield wipers, heater and radio were on at all times. That may have
decreased the battery load running the car. Plus the windy day may have
knocked down the gas mileage. Second, the car had 60,000 miles on it so
perhaps the battery is not as efficient as it ages.

An alternative explanation is that the average miles per gallon read
out may not have been accurate. I did not refill the gas tank upon
returning the car...fleet management takes care of that. So I didn't
have the opportunity to actually calculate gas mileage. After 360
miles, the gas gage still registered a quarter of a tank. And a Civic
has about a 12-gallon tank. So the actual mileage may have been higher.
Though 9 gallons for 360 miles still averages 40 miles per gallon.
There has indeed been talk that actual hybrid mileage rates are
somewhat lower than advertised. I certainly have a topic of
conversation when I get together with my friend the Prius owner later
today.


One other thought. While cruising down the Thruway at 70, I expected
the battery assist to take over periodically. It didn't except for when
accelerating or on upgrades, even though it was fully charged. When
coasting down a downgrade, the meter would go into "charging" mode. I
don't know if this is normal, if it simply doesn't register cruising
assistance from the battery, or if perhaps this is something that
changed with the aging of the vehicle.

Still, it was a very enjoyable car to drive and when it's time to
replace my 98 Civic in another four years, I'll certainly consider a
hybrid.

On 10 Dec 2004 13:11:54 -0800, billnech@msn.com wrote:

>The other day, I had an opportunity to drive a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid
>from Albany, NY to Watertown, NY and back...about 360 miles total. <snip>


Thanks for the report. Any chance that you could get fuel consumption
data from the fleet manager?

<billnech@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1102713114.403906.150910@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> The other day, I had an opportunity to drive a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid
> from Albany, NY to Watertown, NY and back...about 360 miles total. My
> personal car is a 1998 Honda Civic sedan, so the cars were quite
> similar in size and feel. This is the first time that I have ever had
> an extended ride in a hybrid, and the first time I have driven one,
> with the exception of a quick run around the block in a friend's new
> Toyota Prius.
>
> The Civic hybrid is identical inside to the standard Civic sedan. In
> other words, for a compact car, it offers substantial comfort and room,
> including more legroom in the back seat than many mid or full sized
> cars. The trunk remains fairly roomy, though some of the space is taken
> up by the hybrid battery pack.
>
>
> The car accelerates wonderfully with the battery assist...much better
> than my conventional Civic, which in turn accelerates well. There is no
> hesitation, slowing or increased RPM on upgrades, as the battery
> assists kicks in to maintain speed without taxing the engine. In local
> traffic, the car shuts off while stopped and then accelerates instantly
> with the battery assist when you hit the gas. In short, it was a
> pleasure to drive, with Honda's wonderful handling along with excellent
> acceleration.
>
>
> On the dashboard, there is a gage that deals with the hybrid details.
> It indicates the level of battery charge and indicates whether and how
> much the battery is charging or assisting. The latter is with an
> electronic dial that swings one way then the other...fascinating to
> watch. There is also a toggle between two different trip mileage
> settings and the car's odometer. You can reset either trip mileage
> setting at any time and the car will compute the average miles per
> gallon since the reset.
>
> The car is advertised to get about 48 miles per gallon. The trip
> mileage calculator started low as the car took a little time to charge
> up the battery, and then took off. While on the Thruway to Utica, it
> told me that I was averaging about 38 miles per gallon. While on the
> slower Route 12 to Watertown, the average eventually went up to 41
> miles per gallon. It does better at lower speeds than at 70, and
> better still in stop and go traffic.
We have a 2003 Civic LX 4dr 5 spd nonhybrid as a 3rd car which gets about
the same mileage. Last weekend I took a short 330 mile highway trip and got
right at 41.5 mpg. Last Summer with the a/c on usually got between 37-38.
Run about 75 or so. Can't see much advantage.


>
> But I wonder about a few things associated with the calculated trip
> mileage.
>
> I thought the mileage should have been better. A few thoughts on that.
> One, the entire trip was in wet windy weather. The headlights,
> windshield wipers, heater and radio were on at all times. That may have
> decreased the battery load running the car. Plus the windy day may have
> knocked down the gas mileage. Second, the car had 60,000 miles on it so
> perhaps the battery is not as efficient as it ages.
>
> An alternative explanation is that the average miles per gallon read
> out may not have been accurate. I did not refill the gas tank upon
> returning the car...fleet management takes care of that. So I didn't
> have the opportunity to actually calculate gas mileage. After 360
> miles, the gas gage still registered a quarter of a tank. And a Civic
> has about a 12-gallon tank. So the actual mileage may have been higher.
> Though 9 gallons for 360 miles still averages 40 miles per gallon.
> There has indeed been talk that actual hybrid mileage rates are
> somewhat lower than advertised. I certainly have a topic of
> conversation when I get together with my friend the Prius owner later
> today.
>
>
> One other thought. While cruising down the Thruway at 70, I expected
> the battery assist to take over periodically. It didn't except for when
> accelerating or on upgrades, even though it was fully charged. When
> coasting down a downgrade, the meter would go into "charging" mode. I
> don't know if this is normal, if it simply doesn't register cruising
> assistance from the battery, or if perhaps this is something that
> changed with the aging of the vehicle.
>
> Still, it was a very enjoyable car to drive and when it's time to
> replace my 98 Civic in another four years, I'll certainly consider a
> hybrid.
>

Hybrids don't follow the conventional wisdom when it comes to fuel economy.
Most people take a regular gas car on the highway to see what it's best case
scenario will be for fuel economy. This is what your 360 mile trip sounds
like. In a situation like that, the hybrid will perform marginally better
than it's gas-only counterpart. If you want to see the hydrid really shine,
drive 300 miles in a city with tons of stop and go. Then compare it's fuel
economy with a regular gas civic and I think you'll be more impressed.

<billnech@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1102713114.403906.150910@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> The other day, I had an opportunity to drive a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid
> from Albany, NY to Watertown, NY and back...about 360 miles total. My
> personal car is a 1998 Honda Civic sedan, so the cars were quite
> similar in size and feel. This is the first time that I have ever had
> an extended ride in a hybrid, and the first time I have driven one,
> with the exception of a quick run around the block in a friend's new
> Toyota Prius.
>
> The Civic hybrid is identical inside to the standard Civic sedan. In
> other words, for a compact car, it offers substantial comfort and room,
> including more legroom in the back seat than many mid or full sized
> cars. The trunk remains fairly roomy, though some of the space is taken
> up by the hybrid battery pack.
>
>
> The car accelerates wonderfully with the battery assist...much better
> than my conventional Civic, which in turn accelerates well. There is no
> hesitation, slowing or increased RPM on upgrades, as the battery
> assists kicks in to maintain speed without taxing the engine. In local
> traffic, the car shuts off while stopped and then accelerates instantly
> with the battery assist when you hit the gas. In short, it was a
> pleasure to drive, with Honda's wonderful handling along with excellent
> acceleration.
>
>
> On the dashboard, there is a gage that deals with the hybrid details.
> It indicates the level of battery charge and indicates whether and how
> much the battery is charging or assisting. The latter is with an
> electronic dial that swings one way then the other...fascinating to
> watch. There is also a toggle between two different trip mileage
> settings and the car's odometer. You can reset either trip mileage
> setting at any time and the car will compute the average miles per
> gallon since the reset.
>
> The car is advertised to get about 48 miles per gallon. The trip
> mileage calculator started low as the car took a little time to charge
> up the battery, and then took off. While on the Thruway to Utica, it
> told me that I was averaging about 38 miles per gallon. While on the
> slower Route 12 to Watertown, the average eventually went up to 41
> miles per gallon. It does better at lower speeds than at 70, and
> better still in stop and go traffic.
>
> But I wonder about a few things associated with the calculated trip
> mileage.
>
> I thought the mileage should have been better. A few thoughts on that.
> One, the entire trip was in wet windy weather. The headlights,
> windshield wipers, heater and radio were on at all times. That may have
> decreased the battery load running the car. Plus the windy day may have
> knocked down the gas mileage. Second, the car had 60,000 miles on it so
> perhaps the battery is not as efficient as it ages.
>
> An alternative explanation is that the average miles per gallon read
> out may not have been accurate. I did not refill the gas tank upon
> returning the car...fleet management takes care of that. So I didn't
> have the opportunity to actually calculate gas mileage. After 360
> miles, the gas gage still registered a quarter of a tank. And a Civic
> has about a 12-gallon tank. So the actual mileage may have been higher.
> Though 9 gallons for 360 miles still averages 40 miles per gallon.
> There has indeed been talk that actual hybrid mileage rates are
> somewhat lower than advertised. I certainly have a topic of
> conversation when I get together with my friend the Prius owner later
> today.
>
>
> One other thought. While cruising down the Thruway at 70, I expected
> the battery assist to take over periodically. It didn't except for when
> accelerating or on upgrades, even though it was fully charged. When
> coasting down a downgrade, the meter would go into "charging" mode. I
> don't know if this is normal, if it simply doesn't register cruising
> assistance from the battery, or if perhaps this is something that
> changed with the aging of the vehicle.
>
> Still, it was a very enjoyable car to drive and when it's time to
> replace my 98 Civic in another four years, I'll certainly consider a
> hybrid.
>

billnech@msn.com wrote:
> The car accelerates wonderfully with the battery assist...much better
> than my conventional Civic, which in turn accelerates well. There is no

I have a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid.
Dec 2004 Car & Driver has a comment about the acceleration tests that show
the Hybrid as being slower than the non-Hybrid in 0-60 tests.
Because the car is so computer controlled, it is difficult to make a
drag strip launch, yielding slow test times, but in normal driving the
hybrid is faster and smoother than the non-hybrid. This corresponds to my
experience and that of a co-worker with a standard LX automatic.

> I thought the mileage should have been better. A few thoughts on that.
> One, the entire trip was in wet windy weather. The headlights,

I find that the A/C, either to cool the car, or automatically turned on
with the defroster, knocks 2-3mpg off the mileage.

> One other thought. While cruising down the Thruway at 70, I expected
> the battery assist to take over periodically. It didn't except for when

At a steady 70 mph cruise on level ground, you are just driving a
car with a tiny engine. No hybrid magic.

I have seen 100 mile stretches of 80 mph cruise with A/C at 42mpg.
I have seen 20 mile stretches at 45mph at 65mpg.

2003 Civic Hybrid SULEV CVT automatic. San Jose, CA to Benicia, CA.
60mph cruise control, 59.0 miles, 59.0 mpg.
70mph cruise control, 59.0 miles, 52.0 mpg.
http://www.rahul.net/dold/clarence/Honda_Mileage.htm

More in this group:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3D0211E9
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...6a538ae&rnum=3

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5

Sean D <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
> Hybrids don't follow the conventional wisdom when it comes to fuel economy.
> Most people take a regular gas car on the highway to see what it's best case
> scenario will be for fuel economy. This is what your 360 mile trip sounds
> like. In a situation like that, the hybrid will perform marginally better
> than it's gas-only counterpart. If you want to see the hydrid really shine,
> drive 300 miles in a city with tons of stop and go. Then compare it's fuel
> economy with a regular gas civic and I think you'll be more impressed.

On the highway, it has two advantages over a Civic LX. One is the tiny
1330cc engine, which should get great gas mileage if you don't ask it to
work very hard, and the CVT transmission which allows it to run at lower
RPM than you probably would run with a stick, and adjust quickly and
smoothly for power.

If you do ask for that power, like "keeping up" with traffic, instead of
maintaining a steady cruise, the mileage drops.

---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5

In article <1102713114.403906.150910@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups .com>, billnech@msn.com wrote:

>I thought the mileage should have been better. A few thoughts on that.
>One, the entire trip was in wet windy weather. The headlights,
>windshield wipers, heater and radio were on at all times. That may have
>decreased the battery load running the car. Plus the windy day may have
>knocked down the gas mileage. Second, the car had 60,000 miles on it so
>perhaps the battery is not as efficient as it ages.

Sounds like you've got a good handle on it. Headlights wouldn't be
trivial, though I think the other electrical loads mentioned are
pretty small. As someone mentioned, if you had the defroster on,
it'll also run the a/c which will have a big impact. Note that
doing all these things in a 50 mpg car will have a bigger effect
in absolute mpg than in a 15 mpg car.

Wind can certainly have a big effect. With the prevailing
westerlies, you likely had a headwind. Say it averaged 5-10 mph,
that could probably result in about 10-20 % greater fuel
consumption.

Would be interesting to see if a 60k old battery is down on
performance. I wouldn't be surprised if true.

>One other thought. While cruising down the Thruway at 70, I expected
>the battery assist to take over periodically. It didn't except for when
>accelerating or on upgrades, even though it was fully charged. When
>coasting down a downgrade, the meter would go into "charging" mode

Sounds like normal behavior. The Civic uses a relatively small
motor and battery, a mild hybrid if you will. So it isn't
designed to "take over", just to accompany. I could see it going
into regen mode on the downhills if you had cruise control on
(note I have not direct experience with the car). But are you
saying it never came on at all (drain mode) on the uphills?

But there's also the Q as to how well hybrids approach EPA
*estimates* in the real world. Looks like that cite someone else
gave may have many testimonials.

Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote:
> Sounds like normal behavior. The Civic uses a relatively small
> motor and battery, a mild hybrid if you will. So it isn't
> designed to "take over", just to accompany. I could see it going

I suspect, like the OP, that there is small range on the Honda where
something is happeneing, but no bars appear on the meter. I've had the
charge level on the battery pop up one bar, while nothing is showing on the
charge/assist bars.

The Escape/Prius with the electric-only in city traffic should benefit
immensely. The Civic doesn't benefit in heavy stop and go. The engine
shuts off the first time, but after that, it stays on, even if you only
lifted your foot off the brake. It won't shut off until you get above
10mph and drop back down.

About the only change I would like to make to my Civic would be to make the
existing "ECON" button, which controls whether the engine shuts off at all,
able to shut the engine off while you are stopped. That way, if I creep
forward a bit, I can manually shut it off.

The Civic IMA is 13 HP. The Ford Escape electric is 94HP. That gives a
different range for the total sweep of the charge/assist meters.

The meter on my Civic is fairly active. On the Escape it doesn't seem to
move much at all, even when driving in electric-only mode in parking lots.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5

Regarding whether the assist came on in the upgrades, yes it did. In
fact while using cruise control, the assist kept the car moving well at
a steady speed on the upgrades without any noticable increase in engine
RPM.