Honda Car Forum

Confound it!! So I was all set to replace clutch master and slave cyls
today on my 94 Civic, and hit a massive NYC pothole on the way to my
friends' garage (level, enclosed). Shortly after the pothole I hear this
scraping sound from my left front wheel, worse when I braked.

So I get to the garage and get the wheel off to discover that the
outside pad is worn completely down, compared with the right wheel which
has still thick pads with tens of thousands of miles left on them. The
pothole must have knocked out the last vestiges of the pad, thereby
causing the backing plate to score the rotor. DAMN! I don't think it's
scored too badly to use--a bit within the outside half-inch of the
rotation. I expect the new pads would seat OK after a few thousand
miles. I'll sand it a tad to deglaze--180-grit OK?

OK, I flip the caliper up and find that the damned piston is stuck
extended. The other side is retracted as it should be. Looks like I get
to do my brakes now, too. Hell, may as well get my hands even dirtier...
I'm game. Too bad my wife and I have to take the train to our
Thanksgiving destination...

Q is this: I didn't have time to deal with disconnecting the brake line
to see if it's the hose that's frozen (it bends fine, but I guess that
wouldn't tell me much). How should I proceed? Hose or caliper? I don't
have the ability to spend days running back and forth between the car
and the auto parts store, which would have to order the parts anyway, so
I'd rather order more and return what I don't need.

It appeared that the hose is in several sections. Is there a likely
section that gets plugged? I've checked Majestic and SL Honda online,
and can't find a front caliper assembly in the parts list. I'm in the
right section, but no caliper listed, and the ominous "some of the parts
displayed may no longer be available" note on the diagram. I can't find
the hoses at all. HELP! Any problem getting these parts through my local
auto-parts place?

An item of note: the piston doesn't screw in on the front. Don't know
about the back, but I can just use a C-clamp on the front. BTW, I picked
up Bendix "OEM" pads before I thought to check if the caliper was
stuck--these OK?

Thanks as always for the collective wisdom here. I'd be less confident
without you.

Abeness <news@nada.x> sprach im news:La2dnZrs7LHwsTncRVn-hA@rcn.net:

> Confound it!! So I was all set to replace clutch master and slave cyls
> today on my 94 Civic, and hit a massive NYC pothole on the way to my
> friends' garage (level, enclosed). Shortly after the pothole I hear this
> scraping sound from my left front wheel, worse when I braked.
>
> So I get to the garage and get the wheel off to discover that the
> outside pad is worn completely down, compared with the right wheel which
> has still thick pads with tens of thousands of miles left on them.


INNER pad worn, outer pad not:
1) Caliper pins seized and caliper not floating
2) Outer pad seized on mount bracket and not floating

OUTER pad worn, inner pad not:
1) Inner pad seized on mount bracket and not floating

Brakes dragging:
1) Piston seized in caliper bore

Parking brake ineffective:
1) Aftermarket pads
2) Parking brake clevis seized and not pivoting
3) Parking brake cam shaft weather seal failed

Brakes pull to one side:
1) Sticky caliper piston on one side
2) Seized pad or caliper on one side


> The
> pothole must have knocked out the last vestiges of the pad, thereby
> causing the backing plate to score the rotor. DAMN! I don't think it's
> scored too badly to use--a bit within the outside half-inch of the
> rotation. I expect the new pads would seat OK after a few thousand
> miles. I'll sand it a tad to deglaze--180-grit OK?


50 grit is better. Sand all you want.


>
> OK, I flip the caliper up and find that the damned piston is stuck
> extended. The other side is retracted as it should be. Looks like I get
> to do my brakes now, too. Hell, may as well get my hands even dirtier...
> I'm game. Too bad my wife and I have to take the train to our
> Thanksgiving destination...
>
> Q is this: I didn't have time to deal with disconnecting the brake line
> to see if it's the hose that's frozen (it bends fine, but I guess that
> wouldn't tell me much). How should I proceed? Hose or caliper? I don't
> have the ability to spend days running back and forth between the car
> and the auto parts store, which would have to order the parts anyway, so
> I'd rather order more and return what I don't need.



You mean you can't push the piston in with a C-clamp?

Then the piston is seized in the caliper. Time for a rebuild or replacement
with remanufactured calipers. A tip here: replace the PAIR. If you don't
you'll likely find the brakes will pull to one side. Maybe try replacing
the one side, if you get pulling replace the other.

*Highly* unlikely anything's wrong with the lines. 99% of brake trouble is
with the calipers, sliders and pads.


>
> An item of note: the piston doesn't screw in on the front.


Because it has no parking brake.


> Don't know
> about the back,


On the back you have drums.



> but I can just use a C-clamp on the front. BTW, I picked
> up Bendix "OEM" pads before I thought to check if the caliper was
> stuck--these OK?


Those AREN'T "OEM". They are aftermarket "OEM style". Roll of the dice here
for you.


>
> Thanks as always for the collective wisdom here. I'd be less confident
> without you.
>


Collective wisdom can be found condensed here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/rusty...rakeintro.html


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"TeGGer®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
Abeness wrote
> > Don't know
> > about the back,
>
>
> On the back you have drums.

On a 94 Civic EX? (Abness has posted in the past that he has an EX.)

Majestic says at least some EX's have disc brakes on the rear.

"Abeness" <news@nada.x> wrote
snip
> Q is this: I didn't have time to deal with disconnecting the brake line
> to see if it's the hose that's frozen (it bends fine, but I guess that
> wouldn't tell me much). How should I proceed? Hose or caliper? I don't
> have the ability to spend days running back and forth between the car
> and the auto parts store, which would have to order the parts anyway, so
> I'd rather order more and return what I don't need.
>
> It appeared that the hose is in several sections. Is there a likely
> section that gets plugged?

I haven't seen reports of brake hoses plugging with debris.

Brake pistons do freeze in their cylinders, though. I completely disassembled my
front brakes this past summer. As you can imagine, it doesn't take but a little
rust buildup on the piston/cylinder walls to impede operation.

Rust comes from moisture getting into the brake fluid. Brake fluid does have a
chemical tendency to absorb moisture, so a little rust shouldn't be a surprise.

> I've checked Majestic and SL Honda online,
> and can't find a front caliper assembly in the parts list. I'm in the
> right section, but no caliper listed, and the ominous "some of the parts
> displayed may no longer be available" note on the diagram. I can't find
> the hoses at all. HELP! Any problem getting these parts through my local
> auto-parts place?

I double checked you at Majestic (94 Civic EX manual tranny) and see what you
mean.

Yet they have the caliper listed for my 91 Civic. It's also listed for the 93
Civic EX.

I'd email Majestic. I bet they have a full caliper. Better, they do sell
remanufactured calipers. Still better, have you ever worked with local salvage
yards? I priced remanufactured calipers at these where I live and even went to
look at them. They look a lot better than mine (externally). The price was far
less than Majestic's new calipers and IIRC their reman'd calipers, too.

Autozone and/or Pep Boys I believe sells reman'd calipers, too.

I'm not sure what the consensus is here at the group re Autozone et al. reman'd
calipers, though. I think some folks have concerns about non-OEM rubber. Isn't
as tough, in short, but I dunno how true this is.

> An item of note: the piston doesn't screw in on the front. Don't know
> about the back, but I can just use a C-clamp on the front. BTW, I picked
> up Bendix "OEM" pads before I thought to check if the caliper was
> stuck--these OK?

My own experience: My 91 Civic is on its third set of pads. Both the second and
third set of pads were non-OEM. I think the second set was intermediate in
price. The third set is Raybestos, top of the line for my car. I checked for
rotor wear a few months ago, and nothing seems out of the ordinary. At the
current rate, if thickness is the only consideration, they should easily last
another 159k miles.

I'm pretty sure next time I need new pads I will go OEM, though. First, because
they are about the same price as the top of the line Raybestos I bought. Two,
because I am a bit concerned that the Raybestos pads are harder. So they last
longer, but may be wearing the rotor more. Even though I don't have any signs of
abnormal wear.

I do have some scoring on one of the rotors, but the brakes work fine. I'll
monitor it everytime I rotate my tires, but otherwise I lose no sleep over it.

I have a manual transmission and almost always downshift, using the engine to
brake, though, so brake problems will be less obvious unless I go looking for
them.

I'm sure others will comment about pads here, so keep checking back, as always.
Or you can google. It comes up a lot.

Blast! I just wrote a whole message but Thunderbird ate it. First time
that's happened. Will try to reconstruct

TeGGer® wrote:
> On the back you have drums.

Actually, discs. Civic EX with ABS.

> Those AREN'T "OEM". They are aftermarket "OEM style". Roll of the dice here
> for you.

Just finished reading your FAQ--fabulous. Thanks for taking the time and
care to put that together.

You mention "too many problems" with aftermarket pads. Such as? I don't
care one way or the other, the Bendix cost about the same as OEM. (BTW,
I know they aren't actually OEM, that's why I stuck it in quotes.) On
nice thing was that the shim was made out of aluminum--no rust issue
there, though I do wonder if there could be a disintegration issue. They
do come with a "lifetime" warranty, whatever that means fo brake pads,
so I guess the aluminum shims work out fine.

I'm particularly intrigued by the pins question. It seems to me from my
recollection that the lower pin was frozen, but I didn't fully
appreciate the problem until seeing your FAQ. The upper was fine, nice
and greasy and smooth, and I didn't see any rust.

Given that a reman caliper, which I just found after calling Majestic,
is only $72 (well, a bit more after shipping back the old one to recover
the whopping $140 core deposit), it doesn't make sense for me to rebuild
it if the piston is in fact seized. I didn't have a C-clamp handy
because I had thought there were screw-type pistons all around. As I've
said, I'm new to this level of auto work.

Thanks again for the great brake FAQ.

Caroline wrote:
> I haven't seen reports of brake hoses plugging with debris.

That's good. It happened on my old Pontiac, hence the question.

> I'd email Majestic. I bet they have a full caliper. Better, they do sell
> remanufactured calipers. Still better, have you ever worked with local salvage
> yards?

Yeah, I called them earlier and they pointed me to their reman section,
found 'em there.

> I'm pretty sure next time I need new pads I will go OEM, though. First, because
> they are about the same price as the top of the line Raybestos I bought. Two,
> because I am a bit concerned that the Raybestos pads are harder. So they last
> longer, but may be wearing the rotor more. Even though I don't have any signs of
> abnormal wear.

Maybe I'll give the Bendix pads a shot, and keep an eye on them. They
are the "ImportQuiet" line, which makes me think they'll be softer, and
I'll just get an idea of how long they last. I'll google around, too.

> I have a manual transmission and almost always downshift, using the engine to
> brake, though, so brake problems will be less obvious unless I go looking for
> them.

Same here.

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> sprach im
news:OM2pd.10588$pK6.3436@newsread2.news.atl.earth link.net:

> "TeGGer®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
> Abeness wrote
>> > Don't know
>> > about the back,
>>
>>
>> On the back you have drums.
>
> On a 94 Civic EX? (Abness has posted in the past that he has an EX.)
>
> Majestic says at least some EX's have disc brakes on the rear.
>
>


Hm. Didn't know that, thanks. Must be just the lower models that had drums,
then.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> sprach im
news:dX2pd.268$Ua.58@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink. net:


> Brake pistons do freeze in their cylinders, though. I completely
> disassembled my front brakes this past summer. As you can imagine, it
> doesn't take but a little rust buildup on the piston/cylinder walls to
> impede operation.



I find it's more often gum than rust that sticks up the pistons. Rust tends
to invade from the outside, weather being the source. Rust sticks at first,
but rapidly becomes a fluid leak.

Honda, unlike Toyota, uses non-stainless steel pistons. Toyota's are
stainless. Wish Honda would do that too. With Toyota you just clean the gum
off and put it back. With Honda you end up replacing the piston, and it's
not cheap.

One problem with reman calipers is that nobody seems to use silicone grease
on the piston and seals when putting it all back together. They all use
brake fluid as a lubricant because it's cheaper. Silicone grease helps
prevent the buildup of gum and keeps the pistons moving freely for much
longer. Brake fluid dries out and BECOMES gum.

If the caliper is not yet installed, you can just pop the piston out of the
new calipers with some air pressure (even with a bicycle pump with some
electrical tape wrapped around the end to seal it), smear it with some
silicone and reinstall. Observe surgical cleanliness here, by the way,
that's crucial.

If it's already installed, it's a bit more complex:

You can get around this with the judicious use of a syringe from a
woodworking supply store <http://tinyurl.com/6z9j2>, and some silicone
grease.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/rustybrakes/syringe.jpg

What you do is to have a helper step on the pedal as necessary to push the
piston out of its bore most of the way, so the dust boot is mostly
extended. One full pedal push will move the piston about 1/16".

NOTE: ONLY do this if you've been regularly using the pedal-push method of
brake bleeding, or put a block of wood under the pedal so it can't go any
farther than what it does in normal driving!

Use Brakleen or other aerosol brake cleaning solvent to remove the dirt
from the piston and boot first.

Then you ease the syringe under the boot and inject silicone as close to
the hydraulic seal as possible all around the perimeter of the piston. Turn
the piston with a set of channel-locks so you can more easily apply
silicone to the portion that was closest to the top of the caliper. Now
push the piston back in all the way with a C-clamp. Pedal-pump it back out
again and repeat a few times.

When you're done, if the siliconing has been done properly, you should see
the piston move out with a pedal push, but then move back IN again slightly
when the pedal is released.

The grease is just silicone dielectric grease. I use Zip-Slip just because
for me it was easy to get. http://www.themoldersedge.com/polish.htm

Here's another example:
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/8462.html

Googling for
silicone dielectric grease
turns up many more.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Caroline wrote:
> I haven't seen reports of brake hoses plugging with debris.

sometimes they just collapse on the inside. the outside might have a
plastic coating so you dont know. pretty rare, though.
>
> I have a manual transmission and almost always downshift, using the engine to
> brake, though, so brake problems will be less obvious unless I go looking for
> them.

different strokes

id rather replace 5 sets of front brake pads than 1 clutch. FWIW,
sometimes i "blip" the throttle and slip it into neutral and coast to a
stop. and if i wanna mess with someone who i think might be a bit too
close, ill use the parking brake

Abeness wrote:

> Blast! I just wrote a whole message but Thunderbird ate it. First time
> that's happened. Will try to reconstruct
>
> TeGGer® wrote:
> > On the back you have drums.
>
> Actually, discs. Civic EX with ABS.
>
>> Those AREN'T "OEM". They are aftermarket "OEM style". Roll of the dice
>> here for you.
>
>
> Just finished reading your FAQ--fabulous. Thanks for taking the time and
> care to put that together.
>
> You mention "too many problems" with aftermarket pads. Such as? I don't

ive never had a "problem" per se, with aftermarket. maybe a little more
noise or dust, but nothing i cant live with.

> care one way or the other, the Bendix cost about the same as OEM. (BTW,
> I know they aren't actually OEM, that's why I stuck it in quotes.) On
> nice thing was that the shim was made out of aluminum--no rust issue
> there, though I do wonder if there could be a disintegration issue. They
> do come with a "lifetime" warranty, whatever that means fo brake pads,
> so I guess the aluminum shims work out fine.

as long as you can take the worn out pads back and get a new set from
the same place, its all good.
>
> I'm particularly intrigued by the pins question. It seems to me from my
> recollection that the lower pin was frozen, but I didn't fully
> appreciate the problem until seeing your FAQ. The upper was fine, nice
> and greasy and smooth, and I didn't see any rust.
>
> Given that a reman caliper, which I just found after calling Majestic,
> is only $72 (well, a bit more after shipping back the old one to recover
> the whopping $140 core deposit), it doesn't make sense for me to rebuild
> it if the piston is in fact seized. I didn't have a C-clamp handy
> because I had thought there were screw-type pistons all around. As I've
> said, I'm new to this level of auto work.

nah- screw type in the rear. get a large c-clamp from a place like
harbor freight and try it.

you might not really have a stuck caliper at all. who knows?
>
> Thanks again for the great brake FAQ.