Honda Car Forum

SoCalMike <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> sprach im
news:BQ8pd.80945$V41.25535@attbi_s52:

> Caroline wrote:
>> I haven't seen reports of brake hoses plugging with debris.
>
> sometimes they just collapse on the inside. the outside might have a
> plastic coating so you dont know. pretty rare, though.
>>
>> I have a manual transmission and almost always downshift, using the
>> engine to brake, though, so brake problems will be less obvious
>> unless I go looking for them.
>
> different strokes
>
> id rather replace 5 sets of front brake pads than 1 clutch. FWIW,
> sometimes i "blip" the throttle and slip it into neutral and coast to
> a stop. and if i wanna mess with someone who i think might be a bit
> too close, ill use the parking brake
>


"Downshifting" without double-clutching is not smart. You are NOT supposed
to use the clutch as a brake pad.

Downshift properly and there is zero wear on the friction disc.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> > I have a manual transmission and almost always downshift, using the engine
to
> > brake, though, so brake problems will be less obvious unless I go looking
for
> > them.
>
> different strokes
>
> id rather replace 5 sets of front brake pads than 1 clutch.

If you have an authoritative web citation on how much the clutch parts wear due
to engine braking, I'd love to see it.

At 159k miles with the original clutch on my 91 Civic, and no signs of clutch
failure, I'm not inclined to change my braking style.

I did a quick Google and some folks say the wear on the clutch is insignificant.
Others say as you do.

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> sprach im
news:zv9pd.11221$pK6.5331@newsread2.news.atl.earth link.net:

> "SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote
>> Caroline wrote:
>> > I have a manual transmission and almost always downshift, using the
>> > engine
> to
>> > brake, though, so brake problems will be less obvious unless I go
>> > looking
> for
>> > them.
>>
>> different strokes
>>
>> id rather replace 5 sets of front brake pads than 1 clutch.
>
> If you have an authoritative web citation on how much the clutch parts
> wear due to engine braking, I'd love to see it.



What a lot of people do is to use the clutch like a brake pad, which means
they let the clutch slip to achieve braking action. They let the engine
revs fall, then engage the clutch in a lower gear to use the lower revs to
pull the car speed down. It's functionally as though they were using the
parking brake to slow the car, but using the clutch as they would the
parking brake.

Ignorant. And very expensive.


>
> At 159k miles with the original clutch on my 91 Civic, and no signs of
> clutch failure, I'm not inclined to change my braking style.



As of today, 237,811 miles (and counting) on my original. Owned the car
since new, too.

There's still about 1/4" of thread showing on the cable sheath before it
runs into the rubber jacket. How many miles is that? No idea. Could start
slipping tomorrow for all I know.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGer® wrote:
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> sprach im
> news:dX2pd.268$Ua.58@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink. net:
>
>
>
>>Brake pistons do freeze in their cylinders, though. I completely
>>disassembled my front brakes this past summer. As you can imagine, it
>>doesn't take but a little rust buildup on the piston/cylinder walls to
>>impede operation.
>
>
>
>
> I find it's more often gum than rust that sticks up the pistons. Rust tends
> to invade from the outside, weather being the source. Rust sticks at first,
> but rapidly becomes a fluid leak.

if the seal is running on a corroded surface. where you have a steel
piston & an aluminum cylinder [like the master cylinder assembly], the
seal is static on the steel, and slides on the non-corroding alloy
surface. in this situation, there is little or no wear acceleration
above what would happen normally. the exception is where corrosion is
chronic on a system that has not moved /and/ has badly contaminated
[wet] brake fluid. then you get electrolytic reactions between the
steel piston & alloy cylinder & severe pitting, but even then, due to
cunning design, the main compression seals are ahead of the pitting area
as the pistons are behind them. the exception is the wiper seal at the
rear, and if that leaks, it's a pita, but it's not as serious as a main
compression seals.

for front [honda] slave cylinders, you have a very hard smooth well
sealing surface for the seals to slide on, the chrome. as long as the
chrome remains intact, again, wear is insignificant. chromed pistons
can corrode, but that is lessened considerably by regularly changing
brake fluid and doing the silicone trick you describe below.

>
> Honda, unlike Toyota, uses non-stainless steel pistons. Toyota's are
> stainless.

the stainless/non-stainless argument has factors in favor for each.
stainless can still corrode. depends on environment & grade. most
stainless still pits badly in salt. honda [nissin, etc.] pistons are
chrome plated forged steel. this is a very high quality base
material/fabrication route. chrome plating is also many times more wear
resistant than most stainless steels. there's also the potential for a
fatigue advantage - stainless has no fatigue endurance limit, a lot of
non-stainless [ferritic] steels do. finally, the smooth surface of the
chrome is pretty much as good as it gets for fluid seal quality & long
life - as long as it remains intact.

as above, the single easiest way to prevent corrosion on a chrome steel
piston is to make sure the brake fluid is changed regularly.

> Wish Honda would do that too. With Toyota you just clean the gum
> off and put it back. With Honda you end up replacing the piston, and it's
> not cheap.
>
> One problem with reman calipers is that nobody seems to use silicone grease
> on the piston and seals when putting it all back together. They all use
> brake fluid as a lubricant because it's cheaper. Silicone grease helps
> prevent the buildup of gum and keeps the pistons moving freely for much
> longer. Brake fluid dries out and BECOMES gum.

the silicone grease is very important. but brake fluid is cited for the
inner seals because it contains rubber preservatives. left to its own
devices, the rubber would become hard & crack over time. my personal
view is to lightly silicone lube the piston on assembly, then ensure the
boot has sufficient silicone to make the seals air/water tight from the
outside.

>
> If the caliper is not yet installed, you can just pop the piston out of the
> new calipers with some air pressure (even with a bicycle pump with some
> electrical tape wrapped around the end to seal it), smear it with some
> silicone and reinstall. Observe surgical cleanliness here, by the way,
> that's crucial.
>
> If it's already installed, it's a bit more complex:
>
> You can get around this with the judicious use of a syringe from a
> woodworking supply store <http://tinyurl.com/6z9j2>, and some silicone
> grease.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/rustybrakes/syringe.jpg
>
> What you do is to have a helper step on the pedal as necessary to push the
> piston out of its bore most of the way, so the dust boot is mostly
> extended. One full pedal push will move the piston about 1/16".
>
> NOTE: ONLY do this if you've been regularly using the pedal-push method of
> brake bleeding, or put a block of wood under the pedal so it can't go any
> farther than what it does in normal driving!

don't agree about the block - see above. both you & curly regularly
repeat that advice. i don't doubt the sincerity of your intent, but
it's bad advice in any situation requiring brake bleeding. i can see
that it's possible to get away with it on hondas because they bleed
quite easily, but other vehicles can be sob's and the /only/ way to
bleed them reliably is to use full pedal travel to expell all air.
otherwise the air simply compresses & expands within the cylinder again
the moment the pedal is released. if the cylinder is corroded enough
for this to be a concern in the first place - it should be replaced
anyway. pitting can be a fatigue nucleator. i've never seen it happen,
but theoretically, a cylinder could burst if a fatigue crack propagated.

i appreciate the concern about scoring seals & causing leaks, and on low
grade detroit iron, that has some validity, but in high quality honda
systems, corrosion sufficient to be a concern is rare. any
"coincidence" about leakage following any brake bleed proceedure is much
more likely to be caused by fresh brake fluid interacting with
contaminated old seals.

>
> Use Brakleen or other aerosol brake cleaning solvent to remove the dirt
> from the piston and boot first.
>
> Then you ease the syringe under the boot and inject silicone as close to
> the hydraulic seal as possible all around the perimeter of the piston. Turn
> the piston with a set of channel-locks so you can more easily apply
> silicone to the portion that was closest to the top of the caliper. Now
> push the piston back in all the way with a C-clamp. Pedal-pump it back out
> again and repeat a few times.

much better to disassemble and clean the whole workings. all pressing
the piston back in does is ensure the goop gets forced up past the seals
contaminating the fluid & getting stuck in the cylinder/piston gap where
it can cause wear & further corrosion.

/if/ pushing the piston back, it's also prudent to open the bleed nipple
first. avoids pushing contaminated fluid back up into the master cylinder.

>
> When you're done, if the siliconing has been done properly, you should see
> the piston move out with a pedal push, but then move back IN again slightly
> when the pedal is released.
>
> The grease is just silicone dielectric grease. I use Zip-Slip just because
> for me it was easy to get. http://www.themoldersedge.com/polish.htm
>
> Here's another example:
> http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/8462.html

thanks for the links! like your applicator!

>
> Googling for
> silicone dielectric grease
> turns up many more.
>
>

jim beam <nospam@example.net> sprach im
news:KsWdnTHhKL2zyTrcRVn-ig@comcast.com:

> TeGGer® wrote:

>>
>> What you do is to have a helper step on the pedal as necessary to
>> push the piston out of its bore most of the way, so the dust boot is
>> mostly extended. One full pedal push will move the piston about
>> 1/16".
>>
>> NOTE: ONLY do this if you've been regularly using the pedal-push
>> method of brake bleeding, or put a block of wood under the pedal so
>> it can't go any farther than what it does in normal driving!
>
> don't agree about the block - see above. both you & curly regularly
> repeat that advice. i don't doubt the sincerity of your intent, but
> it's bad advice in any situation requiring brake bleeding.



If you re-read my paragraph above, you'll see I was recommending the block
of wood under the pedal for the purposes of pushing the piston out so you
can inject silicone grease under the dust boot. I did not mention bleeding.

If the brakes have been neglected, full pedal pushes are distressingly
likely to wreck the master cylinder seals.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam <nospam@example.net> sprach im
news:KsWdnTHhKL2zyTrcRVn-ig@comcast.com:


> don't agree about the block - see above. both you & curly regularly
> repeat that advice. i don't doubt the sincerity of your intent, but
> it's bad advice in any situation requiring brake bleeding. i can see
> that it's possible to get away with it on hondas because they bleed
> quite easily, but other vehicles can be sob's and the /only/ way to
> bleed them reliably is to use full pedal travel to expell all air.



Of course, but I'd rather have air in the system than a failed master
cylinder, which is what you're likely to get if you try the full pedal push
method with brakes that have been neglected.

If the brakes have stubborn air in them, the answer is to remove the
caliper from the mount bracket so you can turn it in your hands. Put a
block of wood in to keep the piston from moving, then while turning it, tap
it with a nylon mallet and then bleed. The shocks of the mallet will jar
the bubbles loose.





>
> much better to disassemble and clean the whole workings. all pressing
> the piston back in does is ensure the goop gets forced up past the
> seals contaminating the fluid & getting stuck in the cylinder/piston
> gap where it can cause wear & further corrosion.


The only seals are the hydraulic seal in the caliper and the master
cylinder (unless you have ABS). The fluid would have to be pretty bad to
have the master cylinder damaged from pushing the fluid back through it. If
it's that much of a concern, bleed the brakes before pushing the pistons
in.


>
> /if/ pushing the piston back, it's also prudent to open the bleed
> nipple first. avoids pushing contaminated fluid back up into the
> master cylinder.
>

That's a good idea.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGer® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> sprach im
> news:KsWdnTHhKL2zyTrcRVn-ig@comcast.com:
>
>
>>TeGGer® wrote:
>
>
>>>What you do is to have a helper step on the pedal as necessary to
>>>push the piston out of its bore most of the way, so the dust boot is
>>>mostly extended. One full pedal push will move the piston about
>>>1/16".
>>>
>>>NOTE: ONLY do this if you've been regularly using the pedal-push
>>>method of brake bleeding, or put a block of wood under the pedal so
>>>it can't go any farther than what it does in normal driving!
>>
>>don't agree about the block - see above. both you & curly regularly
>>repeat that advice. i don't doubt the sincerity of your intent, but
>>it's bad advice in any situation requiring brake bleeding.
>
>
>
>
> If you re-read my paragraph above, you'll see I was recommending the block
> of wood under the pedal for the purposes of pushing the piston out so you
> can inject silicone grease under the dust boot. I did not mention bleeding.
>
> If the brakes have been neglected, full pedal pushes are distressingly
> likely to wreck the master cylinder seals.

don't get me wrong tegger, i'm not criticizing you - just pointing out
stuff i've learned. you can see the same wear features appearing in
working non-leaking parts that have seen a few years service as you do
with stuff that's known to be defective. the only difference is the
degree of wear. rubber seals that have not oxidized or de-polymerized
are very resilient. if you're talking some junky old piece of iron
that's of the kind that can host corrosion all the way down the master
cylinder, you're right, seals can see accelerated wear. but that
cylinder's not long for this world anyway because the seals are probably
degrading chemically as well as wearing physically.

check the difference in physical properties of a new seal and one that's
old, crusty & known to leak. the new ones are flexible, tough & don't
retain marks in the surface if you press with your fingernail. old ones
are either soft like a gummy bear if they've been contaminated with oil,
or hard like some old paint from the bottom of a dried out can if
they've oxidized. both retain marks from the fingernail test because
the material's surface has degraded.

bottom line is that if the component can't function to spec, and that
includes the ability to use the full length of the cylinder in the event
of brake line outage or something, then it should be serviced or replaced.

SoCalMike wrote:
> ive never had a "problem" per se, with aftermarket. maybe a little more
> noise or dust, but nothing i cant live with.

OK, thanks for the info.

> as long as you can take the worn out pads back and get a new set from
> the same place, its all good.

Seems crazy to me. I mean, aren't they designed to wear out? Must refer
to faulty materials, not regular wear, but I'll read the fine print.

> nah- screw type in the rear. get a large c-clamp from a place like
> harbor freight and try it.
>
> you might not really have a stuck caliper at all. who knows?

That's what I'm hoping. Will try on Tue and hope for the best.

TeGGer® wrote:
> If the caliper is not yet installed, you can just pop the piston out of the
> new calipers with some air pressure (even with a bicycle pump with some
> electrical tape wrapped around the end to seal it), smear it with some
> silicone and reinstall. Observe surgical cleanliness here, by the way,
> that's crucial.

I'm hoping the caliper is fine and that I won't have to replace it now,
but if I do, is there any place I *don't* want to smear the silicone
grease? If I'm smearing it on the piston (even just on the sides where
it contacts the cylinder) I'd think it would come into contact with the
brake fluid--that's OK?

I doubt I'll be disassembling the installed caliper to grease it, would
be more cost effective to replace it, I think.

Thanks for the links to the grease. Hopefully the hardcore h/w store I
go to in Brooklyn will have an equivalent.

Abeness <news@nada.x> floridly penned in
news:0-KdnRd6Gd6TzDfcRVn-rw@rcn.net:

> TeGGer® wrote:
>> If the caliper is not yet installed, you can just pop the piston out
>> of the new calipers with some air pressure (even with a bicycle pump
>> with some electrical tape wrapped around the end to seal it), smear
>> it with some silicone and reinstall. Observe surgical cleanliness
>> here, by the way, that's crucial.
>
> I'm hoping the caliper is fine and that I won't have to replace it
> now, but if I do, is there any place I *don't* want to smear the
> silicone grease? If I'm smearing it on the piston (even just on the
> sides where it contacts the cylinder) I'd think it would come into
> contact with the brake fluid--that's OK?


Don't get silicone on the rotor friction surface. But since the caliper is
OFF the rotor as you work on it, that's not a problem. Anywhere else is
fine, including contact with the brake fluid.


>
> I doubt I'll be disassembling the installed caliper to grease it,
> would be more cost effective to replace it, I think.


You don't need to disassemble the installed caliper. The procedure I gave
specifically avoids that.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/