Honda Car Forum

hey folks... have had an 88 civic DX 4 door manual transmission for about a
year now, it has treated me well for the most part (apart from an
aggravating hot start issue that switching out the main relay did NOT fix,
much to my surprise).

anyway, 2 days ago it started turning over very slowly when i went to try
starting it, makign me think the battery was starting to go (no idea how
long the battery's been in the car, i haven't switched it since i got it).
yesterday i took it to a batter shop, he checked teh battery and told me it
looked like it was bad, so pulled it out and put a new one in. when i went
to start the car immediately, it still turned overy very slowly as though
the battery was almost done, though it did spark and start. so it seems
perhaps i have a bad starter as well. just to see, we also did a volt read
on the battery, and while the car was running it only read 12 V... so it
appears i might have a problem with the alternator as well. something seems
odd to me, that all 3 would go on the same day, after a year of not having a
problem with any of them. (unless the alternator's been just barely working
enough to keep me going? i don't know)...

anyway, i'm a college student and dont have much money to be paying for work
done, so i'm hoping i can replace the starter myself... but my Haynes manual
contains almost no information at all on locating the starter or what the
starter even looks like. i looked at an online manual from honda.co.uk,
which had a vague diagram but was still hard to decipher exactly what the
starter was.

any tips? is replacing a starter on this model something easily done by
someone who sort of knows his way around vehicle repair, in the most basic
of ways? can anyone point me to any good resources that will outline the
process clearly and somewhat basically? should i just suck it up and have
the shop do the work and eat mr noodles this month?

thanks in advance.... and if anyone has any ideas about the hot start
problem feel free to let me know too. (same symptoms as many have described,
turns over but won't spark immediately after running unless you let it sit
10-20 minutes, then starts fine, replacing the main relay did nothing to
address the problem)

peace...jer

www.autozone.com has free repair guides specific to the 88 Civic.
They're better than Haynes and often duplicate the factory manual.

Follow the pointers to the free repair guides, put in your Civic's
specifics, then click on in order:
Engine & Engine Overhaul
Engine Electrical
Starter

Photos, diagrams, and steps appear at this site.

Meanwhile, do you know about using a push to make this (manual
transmission) car run?

"Jeremy" <jervis@NOSPAMtelus.net> wrote
> hey folks... have had an 88 civic DX 4 door manual transmission for
about a
> year now, it has treated me well for the most part (apart from an
> aggravating hot start issue that switching out the main relay did
NOT fix,
> much to my surprise).
>
> anyway, 2 days ago it started turning over very slowly when i went
to try
> starting it, makign me think the battery was starting to go (no idea
how
> long the battery's been in the car, i haven't switched it since i
got it).
> yesterday i took it to a batter shop, he checked teh battery and
told me it
> looked like it was bad, so pulled it out and put a new one in. when
i went
> to start the car immediately, it still turned overy very slowly as
though
> the battery was almost done, though it did spark and start. so it
seems
> perhaps i have a bad starter as well. just to see, we also did a
volt read
> on the battery, and while the car was running it only read 12 V...
so it
> appears i might have a problem with the alternator as well.
something seems
> odd to me, that all 3 would go on the same day, after a year of not
having a
> problem with any of them. (unless the alternator's been just barely
working
> enough to keep me going? i don't know)...
>
> anyway, i'm a college student and dont have much money to be paying
for work
> done, so i'm hoping i can replace the starter myself... but my
Haynes manual
> contains almost no information at all on locating the starter or
what the
> starter even looks like. i looked at an online manual from
honda.co.uk,
> which had a vague diagram but was still hard to decipher exactly
what the
> starter was.
>
> any tips? is replacing a starter on this model something easily done
by
> someone who sort of knows his way around vehicle repair, in the most
basic
> of ways? can anyone point me to any good resources that will outline
the
> process clearly and somewhat basically? should i just suck it up and
have
> the shop do the work and eat mr noodles this month?
>
> thanks in advance.... and if anyone has any ideas about the hot
start
> problem feel free to let me know too. (same symptoms as many have
described,
> turns over but won't spark immediately after running unless you let
it sit
> 10-20 minutes, then starts fine, replacing the main relay did
nothing to
> address the problem)
>
> peace...jer
>
>

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:W6fhd.14144$5i5.13117@newsread2.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
> www.autozone.com has free repair guides specific to the 88 Civic.
> They're better than Haynes and often duplicate the factory manual.
>

Thanks, good site. The guides for the Civic appear to be for '84 - '95,
inclusive, so I don't know how much of the info or diagrams are specific to
a model other than mine, but it gives me a better idea of what i'm dealing
with.

> Photos, diagrams, and steps appear at this site.
>
> Meanwhile, do you know about using a push to make this (manual
> transmission) car run?
>

I haven't tried it yet because I haven't needed to, but I'm assuming it
should work...

Thanks again...

Jeremy

Jeremy wrote:
> hey folks... have had an 88 civic DX 4 door manual transmission for
> about a year now, it has treated me well for the most part (apart
> from an aggravating hot start issue that switching out the main relay
> did NOT fix, much to my surprise).
>
> anyway, 2 days ago it started turning over very slowly when i went to
> try starting it, makign me think the battery was starting to go (no
> idea how long the battery's been in the car, i haven't switched it
> since i got it). yesterday i took it to a batter shop, he checked teh
> battery and told me it looked like it was bad, so pulled it out and
> put a new one in. when i went to start the car immediately, it still
> turned overy very slowly as though the battery was almost done,
> though it did spark and start. so it seems perhaps i have a bad
> starter as well. just to see, we also did a volt read on the battery,
> and while the car was running it only read 12 V... so it appears i
> might have a problem with the alternator as well. something seems odd
> to me, that all 3 would go on the same day, after a year of not
> having a problem with any of them. (unless the alternator's been just
> barely working enough to keep me going? i don't know)...
>
> anyway, i'm a college student and dont have much money to be paying
> for work done, so i'm hoping i can replace the starter myself... but
> my Haynes manual contains almost no information at all on locating
> the starter or what the starter even looks like. i looked at an
> online manual from honda.co.uk, which had a vague diagram but was
> still hard to decipher exactly what the starter was.
>
> any tips? is replacing a starter on this model something easily done
> by someone who sort of knows his way around vehicle repair, in the
> most basic of ways? can anyone point me to any good resources that
> will outline the process clearly and somewhat basically? should i
> just suck it up and have the shop do the work and eat mr noodles this
> month?
>
> thanks in advance.... and if anyone has any ideas about the hot start
> problem feel free to let me know too. (same symptoms as many have
> described, turns over but won't spark immediately after running
> unless you let it sit 10-20 minutes, then starts fine, replacing the
> main relay did nothing to address the problem)

Try cleaning the distributor cap per the article on my website below.
Your symptoms fit this problem exactly. The article is about my Rover
which uses a Honda design and is in the 'Miscellanea' section.

As to the slow cranking, go to a different battery shop and ask them
to check over the battery condition.


--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

Jeremy wrote:

<snip>

> just to see, we also did a volt read
> on the battery, and while the car was running it only read 12 V... so it
> appears i might have a problem with the alternator as well.

If I were to venture a guess, I would say that your starter is OK, your
battery died from being under-charged all the time, and your alternator
is bad.

Many Hondas have a feature where the alternator output voltage is
dropped at idle under low-load conditions in order to save fuel. I know
they did this as far back as '94, not sure if they did it in '88. On my
'94 Civic you can defeat this voltage reduction by stepping on the
brakes (foot pedal only, hand brake does not count).

Try measuring the voltage again while stepping on the brakes. Now what
do you read? Then measure the voltage as you slowly increase the engine
RPM from idle to around 3000 RPM (no need to be very accurate, "sounds
like about 3000 RPM" is close enough). If your voltage reading never
reaches 14.5V or if it reaches 14.5V at elevated RPM and then stays
constant as you increase the RPM further, you probably need new brushes
in the alternator. Don't know if they were replaceable in '88. If the
alternator is the original one, you may want to opt to replace it rather
than repair it.

If the voltage increases with RPM, and goes above 15V at elevated RPM,
then the voltage regulator is broken. Again, I don't know if it is
replaceable or if you need to replace the entire alternator.

"Graham W" <graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote in message
news:4185a057$0$566$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> Jeremy wrote:
> > thanks in advance.... and if anyone has any ideas about the hot start
> > problem feel free to let me know too. (same symptoms as many have
> > described, turns over but won't spark immediately after running
> > unless you let it sit 10-20 minutes, then starts fine, replacing the
> > main relay did nothing to address the problem)
>
> Try cleaning the distributor cap per the article on my website below.
> Your symptoms fit this problem exactly. The article is about my Rover
> which uses a Honda design and is in the 'Miscellanea' section.
>

I should add that, when the hot start problem comes up, the fuel pump is NOT
running for the 2 seconds or so that it should when you turn the key; before
or after I replaced the main relay.

> As to the slow cranking, go to a different battery shop and ask them
> to check over the battery condition.
>
>

I have a brand new battery in there, and left a charger on it overnight, and
it persists in slow cranking... soo... would that indicate it is _not_ a
battery issue?

thanks... jeremy

"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message
news:4185BDB7.DB8D5213@junkmail.com...
>
> Jeremy wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > just to see, we also did a volt read
> > on the battery, and while the car was running it only read 12 V... so it
> > appears i might have a problem with the alternator as well.
>
> If I were to venture a guess, I would say that your starter is OK, your
> battery died from being under-charged all the time, and your alternator
> is bad.
>

Hmm. I did put a brand new battery put in, and left a charger on it
overnight, and it still cranks slowly. Does that point away from the issue
being related to the battery? The alternator thing does seem odd to me
though, I don't understand how both problems could have come up at the same
time with no prior warnings at all....

> Many Hondas have a feature where the alternator output voltage is
> dropped at idle under low-load conditions in order to save fuel. I know
> they did this as far back as '94, not sure if they did it in '88. On my
> '94 Civic you can defeat this voltage reduction by stepping on the
> brakes (foot pedal only, hand brake does not count).
>
> Try measuring the voltage again while stepping on the brakes. Now what
> do you read? Then measure the voltage as you slowly increase the engine
> RPM from idle to around 3000 RPM (no need to be very accurate, "sounds
> like about 3000 RPM" is close enough). If your voltage reading never
> reaches 14.5V or if it reaches 14.5V at elevated RPM and then stays
> constant as you increase the RPM further, you probably need new brushes
> in the alternator. Don't know if they were replaceable in '88. If the
> alternator is the original one, you may want to opt to replace it rather
> than repair it.
>

I didn't know Honda did that... not sure if mine does or not. I didn't try
the brakes thing, but when I was at the shop, I did raise the engine to
about 2500-3000 ish RPM and the voltage reading didn't change. So perhaps
that is the case and the alternator's fine...? Although I'd be surprised if
they had made the '88 with that feature. I'll check it out (don't have a
voltage reader of my own, like I said, I'm not a mechanic, just some jerk
student who's doing his best not to give his business to the hard-working
mechanics in town. (oh, and save money. ) )...

thanks...jeremy

"Jeremy" <jervis@NOSPAMtelus.net> wrote in message
news:jwkhd.37190$df2.23116@edtnps89...
>
> "Graham W" <graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote in message
> news:4185a057$0$566$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> > Jeremy wrote:
> > > thanks in advance.... and if anyone has any ideas about the hot
start
> > > problem feel free to let me know too. (same symptoms as many have
> > > described, turns over but won't spark immediately after running
> > > unless you let it sit 10-20 minutes, then starts fine, replacing the
> > > main relay did nothing to address the problem)
> >
> > Try cleaning the distributor cap per the article on my website below.
> > Your symptoms fit this problem exactly. The article is about my Rover
> > which uses a Honda design and is in the 'Miscellanea' section.
> >
>
> I should add that, when the hot start problem comes up, the fuel pump is
NOT
> running for the 2 seconds or so that it should when you turn the key;
before
> or after I replaced the main relay.

If the pump isn't giving the 2 secs priming run then you have to find
out why. Was the replacement Main Relay a brand new one? If you
picked one up at a breaker's it may be faulty, too.

Did you look at your original at the PCB (board) into which the relay
frames are soldered? A 'dry' joint is fairly easy to spot and the photo
at Mark's site (referenced from the article on mine) shows what that
bad joint looks like. A jeweller's eyeglass can be useful.

Don't throw either Main Relay unit away since the 'dry' joint is just
about the only thing that goes wrong with them and that is mendable.

> > As to the slow cranking, go to a different battery shop and ask them
> > to check over the battery condition.
>
> I have a brand new battery in there, and left a charger on it overnight,
and
> it persists in slow cranking... soo... would that indicate it is _not_ a
> battery issue?

Well, it seems like it would (thinks 'what did you do with the old battery
if the new one didn't fix the problem?'). I would still suggest that you
get
a second opinion from another shop since the voltage readings you
report all say 12V.

One test that should be done is to read the voltage while the engine
is being cranked. It needs to exceed 9V to be considered serviceable
although my car will start when it is down to 6V and barely pulling
over TDC (compression).

HTH
--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

"Jeremy" <jervis@NOSPAMtelus.net> wrote in message news:jkehd.36745$df2.3194@edtnps89...
> yesterday i took it to a batter shop, he checked teh battery and told me it
> looked like it was bad, so pulled it out and put a new one in. when i went
> to start the car immediately, it still turned overy very slowly as though
> the battery was almost done, though it did spark and start. so it seems
> perhaps i have a bad starter as well. just to see, we also did a volt read
> on the battery, and while the car was running it only read 12 V...
> thanks in advance.... and if anyone has any ideas about the hot start
> problem feel free to let me know too. (same symptoms as many have described,
> turns over but won't spark immediately after running unless you let it sit
> 10-20 minutes, then starts fine, replacing the main relay did nothing to
> address the problem)
> peace...jer

Sounds like a bad solenoid or battery cables. They cause resistance and
the starter runs slowly. Touch them see if they're hot. The solenoid is a
size of a can of Red Bull located on top of the starter on the
transmission-firewall passenger side. The cables are a feet and a half
long. Just to be sure, jump the solenoid's two terminal on its
back. If that doesn't work, then power the starter with a large cable.

If you don't hear that two seconds of fuel pump sound then the main
relay is shot again. Open it up and see if you can spot a dry joint. Fix it then
put some breathing holes on its cover. Generally, the alternator brushes
are replaceable.

Rick

"Jeremy" <jervis@NOSPAMtelus.net> wrote
> "Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote
snip
> > Many Hondas have a feature where the alternator output voltage is
> > dropped at idle under low-load conditions in order to save fuel. I
know
> > they did this as far back as '94, not sure if they did it in '88.
On my
> > '94 Civic you can defeat this voltage reduction by stepping on the
> > brakes (foot pedal only, hand brake does not count).

On my 1991 Civic, turning on the headlights defeats it.

In other words, starting the car in the morning in summer temperatures
and no loads yields a battery terminal voltage of 12.7 volts. Turn on
the headlights, and it jumps to between 14 and 14.5 volts.

My Chilton's manual does not mention this. Nor do the free Autozone
manuals for my Honda. The only online manual source I found that
discusses this is at the UK site for the 1991 Concerto (same engine as
my 91 Civic, I believe).

> I didn't know Honda did that... not sure if mine does or not. I
didn't try
> the brakes thing, but when I was at the shop, I did raise the engine
to
> about 2500-3000 ish RPM and the voltage reading didn't change. So
perhaps
> that is the case and the alternator's fine...? Although I'd be
surprised if
> they had made the '88 with that feature. I'll check it out (don't
have a
> voltage reader of my own, like I said, I'm not a mechanic, just some
jerk
> student who's doing his best not to give his business to the
hard-working
> mechanics in town. (oh, and save money. ) )...

The instructions for checking a 1988-1991 CRX alternator are
accessible at http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/CRXManual/index.html .
Select "Full Manual" etc. on the left, then "Electrical" and then
"alternator" to bring up a PDF file.

Like the instructions for the 91 Concerto, these have a series of
steps to take that require a load (headlights, radio, etc.) to be
placed on the electrical system and imply that the voltage should rise
after this load is added.