Honda Car Forum

I would rather have a quick Accord 4 cylinder LX hybrid that gets 59 mpg.

Will hybrids come down in cost due to higher demand and mass production?

I would doubt the cost would come down in the case of the Accord. You
have the regular EX V-6 plus all the hybrid equipment added to it.
Other types with their tiny gasoline engines maybe.

On 18 Oct 2004 10:36:41 -0700, francishals@yahoo.co.nz (Bobby
Fischler) wrote:

>I would rather have a quick Accord 4 cylinder LX hybrid that gets 59 mpg.
>
>Will hybrids come down in cost due to higher demand and mass production?

I agree. Why wouldn't they do the IMA with the 4cyl and get diesel fuel
economy with V6 performance?


"Bobby Fischler" <francishals@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ae681794.0410180936.6be6ecfb@posting.google.c om...
>I would rather have a quick Accord 4 cylinder LX hybrid that gets 59 mpg.
>
> Will hybrids come down in cost due to higher demand and mass production?


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In article <fdGdnR1QwLAOtuncRVn-ig@rogers.com>, "LBJGH" <bite_mee@hotsnail.back> wrote:
>I agree. Why wouldn't they do the IMA with the 4cyl and get diesel fuel
>economy with V6 performance?
>
>
>"Bobby Fischler" <francishals@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:ae681794.0410180936.6be6ecfb@posting.google. com...
>>I would rather have a quick Accord 4 cylinder LX hybrid that gets 59 mpg.
>>
>> Will hybrids come down in cost due to higher demand and mass production?

The Civic Hybrid gets "only" 45/51 mpg, so it is unrealistic to
expect that the heavier Accord 4-banger would get 59 mpg with a
similar hybrid scheme.

The Civic Hybrid also doesn't perform like a 6. And I think it
underperforms the normal 1.7L-4 since it is downsized so much. So
again, unlikely to get v6 performance from Honda's hybrid in a
small 4. Their IMA design uses a very small motor which enables
fuel shutoff, some torque assist, engine operation at more
efficient operating points. But doesn't provide as much power &
torque enhancement as the Prius or Escape.

Yes, I do expect that hybrid costs will come down with economies
of scale and technology advances. But right now the battery
supply (and cost and technology) is probably the limiting factor.
So, it might be a while before prices drop appreciably.

Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote:
> small 4. Their IMA design uses a very small motor which enables
> fuel shutoff, some torque assist, engine operation at more
> efficient operating points. But doesn't provide as much power &
> torque enhancement as the Prius or Escape.

I agree with your description of my Civic IMA.
The IMA is a 15HP "boost" to a puny gas engine, allowing reasonable
performance from a high mileage gas miser. It is smooth, but not overly
powerful. The 94HP electric motor in the Escape is one horse less than the
gas+electric in my Civic. I drove the Escape on Saturday, and I'm shopping
for a price to order one this week. Orders are bein taken for delivery in
January, given current allocations and waiting lists.

> Yes, I do expect that hybrid costs will come down with economies
> of scale and technology advances. But right now the battery
> supply (and cost and technology) is probably the limiting factor.

Batteries arent't terribly expensive. My IMA is 120 NiMH D-Cells.
The Ford Escape is 150 NiMH D-Cells. That's less than $1000 retail.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5

In article <cl1m4f$l7k$1@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXNewXA.usenet.us.com wrote:

>The 94HP electric motor in the Escape is one horse less than the
>gas+electric in my Civic. I drove the Escape on Saturday, and I'm shopping
>for a price to order one this week. Orders are bein taken for delivery in
>January, given current allocations and waiting lists.

Note that, as with the Prius, the engine hp + motor hp don't add
linearly. There's probably numerous reasons for this, but one is
that the battery isn't capable of supplying the ~80 kW to drive
the motor at this power! Basically, the engine has to run a
generator to fully power the motor(!). This might seem strange,
but it does make some sense from a system point of view.

>Batteries arent't terribly expensive. My IMA is 120 NiMH D-Cells.
>The Ford Escape is 150 NiMH D-Cells. That's less than $1000 retail.

A correction: The Escape has 250 cells, I believe of similar
amp-hr capacity to that of the Honda's. So, should be about 2x as
expensive.

But still, we're talking $2000 or so. The motors and generators
also add considerable expense. So I think the ~$3000 or so they
add to the price is a pretty good deal. As I mentioned, I expect
with time they will get cheaper. Whether they choose to pass on
that savings, I don't know (probably more a matter of "when" for
both).

Dave <dm@nospam.com> wrote:
> A correction: The Escape has 250 cells, I believe of similar
> amp-hr capacity to that of the Honda's. So, should be about 2x as
> expensive.

You're right... My math was bad. I was handily converting 330 volts with
2.2 volt cells, instead of 1.2v. The math should be 275 X 1.2v = 330V.
That would be double the cost of the Honda pack, which I saw at about $680
last year. That's probably about equal to the cost of $1600 navigation
display. Still not a lot of money.

> But still, we're talking $2000 or so. The motors and generators
> also add considerable expense. So I think the ~$3000 or so they
> add to the price is a pretty good deal.

Ah, I see your point. If the batteries are $1500, then the Hybrid option
at $3000 is a good deal... Interesting spin. In the case of the Civic,
they also pile on all of the options, so the high margin of options is part
of the overall price of the Hybrid. Also a good deal, if you were going to
get those options anyway.

Side air bags are an option on the Escape, bundled with the Civic.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5

Dave wrote:
> the motor at this power! Basically, the engine has to run a
> generator to fully power the motor(!). This might seem strange,
> but it does make some sense from a system point of view.

One reason is sounds strange is that it really isn't so. The (electric)
motor and the generator is one and the same unit. It can operate as a
motor, consuming electric power or operate as a generator, delivering
electric power. It can not do both at the same time. You are right about
availability of electric power being important, Toyota lists two 0 - 60
mph numbers for the Prius, one for fully charged batteries and one for
discharged batteries.

In article <41747C24.33791D3@junkmail.com>, Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote:
>
>Dave wrote:
>> the motor at this power! Basically, the engine has to run a
>> generator to fully power the motor(!). This might seem strange,
>> but it does make some sense from a system point of view.
>
>One reason is sounds strange is that it really isn't so. The (electric)
>motor and the generator is one and the same unit.

Yes ... and No. At least with the Prius and I'm 99% sure that the
Escape is the same. Yes in that the traction motor is also a
generator which captures regen braking. But there is a *second*
generator (which doesn't double as a motor) that is also on the
planetary that takes engine power, converts it to electric, which
then either recharges the battery or feeds the traction motor.
And the three speeds of the devices (engine, generator, traction
motor) play a complex dance through the planetary gearbox to make
it all work efficiently. Obviously, the traction motor/generator
doesn't do both fcns at the same time.

The Escape uses a 94 hp (70 kW output) traction motor. If it has
a 90% efficiency, that requires 78 kW of input electric. This
cannot be met by a c. 30 kW battery! So, when the traction motor
is running full out, well more than half of its power is coming
from the IC engine!

Dave wrote:
>
> In article <41747C24.33791D3@junkmail.com>, Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Dave wrote:
> >> the motor at this power! Basically, the engine has to run a
> >> generator to fully power the motor(!). This might seem strange,
> >> but it does make some sense from a system point of view.
> >
> >One reason is sounds strange is that it really isn't so. The (electric)
> >motor and the generator is one and the same unit.
>
> Yes ... and No. At least with the Prius and I'm 99% sure that the
> Escape is the same. Yes in that the traction motor is also a
> generator which captures regen braking. But there is a *second*
> generator (which doesn't double as a motor) that is also on the
> planetary that takes engine power, converts it to electric, which
> then either recharges the battery or feeds the traction motor.
> And the three speeds of the devices (engine, generator, traction
> motor) play a complex dance through the planetary gearbox to make
> it all work efficiently. Obviously, the traction motor/generator
> doesn't do both fcns at the same time.

Yes, the Prius has one electric motor (that doubles as a generator) and
one separate generator. The Honda Insight and the Honda Civic Hybrid
does not have this system. Honda has one single unit (that operates in
motor or generator mode) sandwiched between the engine and the
transmission.

I don't know if the Accord will use a system similar to the Civic and
Insight (mild hybrid) or if it will have a Prius-like system (full
hybrid). I know my preference would be the much simpler mild hybrid
system.

> The Escape uses a 94 hp (70 kW output) traction motor. If it has
> a 90% efficiency, that requires 78 kW of input electric. This
> cannot be met by a c. 30 kW battery! So, when the traction motor
> is running full out, well more than half of its power is coming
> from the IC engine!

I know that the Toyota site describes what you are saying, using the
generator and motor at the same time. To me it makes absolutely no
sense. For the Escape, let's say you want to run the motor full power,
70 kW. You need 78 kW of electric power. Let's say the battery is fully
charged and can deliver 30 kW, so you need an additional 48 kW. This
will come from the generator which I will assume to be 90% efficient.
Thus the engine needs to deliver 53 kW to the generator.

If we don't try to invent perpetual motion, and just run the electric
motor with as much power as the battery pack can supply, we will get 30
kW to the motor, 27 kW delivered from the motor. This is 43 kW short of
full power. So the engine can deliver 53 kW to the generator or 43 kW
directly for the same power at the wheels.

One could speculate that the engine efficiency can be better in one
operating mode than the other, but 20% more efficient?

Another thought is that it is unusual to rate batteries in kW or HP.
Certainly there is a limit to much power can be extracted from a
battery, but it is more common to rate the energy storage of the battery
in kWh. However, I believe the 30 kW power rating is correct. To
elaborate: The Prius battery has a similar power rating, 21 kW (not
kWh). Also, 250 D-cell NiMH batteries (let's be generous and say 10 Ah
capacity, though I have never seen more than 6.5 Ah) the storage
capacity is barely 3 kWh, again pointing the 30 kW being a power rating
as stated.