Honda Car Forum

The Accord uses a 12KW electric assist motor (68mm thick) sandwiched
between the engine and automatic transmission. The V-6 is basically
the same 240HP engine, but with lighter components and variable
cylinder management so it can run on 3 cylinders when appropriate. It
should be noted that this is not your Prius type vehicle. It produces
255 horsepower, and cuts 1/2 second off the 0-60 time of the current
V-6.


On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:38:04 GMT, Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote:

>Yes, the Prius has one electric motor (that doubles as a generator) and
>one separate generator. The Honda Insight and the Honda Civic Hybrid
>does not have this system. Honda has one single unit (that operates in
>motor or generator mode) sandwiched between the engine and the
>transmission.
>
>I don't know if the Accord will use a system similar to the Civic and
>Insight (mild hybrid) or if it will have a Prius-like system (full
>hybrid). I know my preference would be the much simpler mild hybrid
>system.

I thought I read on the honda web site that the hybrid accord
has more hp than the regular v-6 accord? Anyone know
what the difference is?


On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:22:39 -0700, Dick <LeadWinger> wrote:

>The Accord uses a 12KW electric assist motor (68mm thick) sandwiched
>between the engine and automatic transmission. The V-6 is basically
>the same 240HP engine, but with lighter components and variable
>cylinder management so it can run on 3 cylinders when appropriate. It
>should be noted that this is not your Prius type vehicle. It produces
>255 horsepower, and cuts 1/2 second off the 0-60 time of the current
>V-6.
>
>
>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:38:04 GMT, Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Yes, the Prius has one electric motor (that doubles as a generator) and
>>one separate generator. The Honda Insight and the Honda Civic Hybrid
>>does not have this system. Honda has one single unit (that operates in
>>motor or generator mode) sandwiched between the engine and the
>>transmission.
>>
>>I don't know if the Accord will use a system similar to the Civic and
>>Insight (mild hybrid) or if it will have a Prius-like system (full
>>hybrid). I know my preference would be the much simpler mild hybrid
>>system.

----
elbert.clarke@**us.army.mil
remove the ** to email

If you read what you quoted below your post, you will see that it is
15HP. 255 - 240 = 15.

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:48:39 -0500, Elbert
<elbert.clarke@**adelphia.net> wrote:

>
>I thought I read on the honda web site that the hybrid accord
>has more hp than the regular v-6 accord? Anyone know
>what the difference is?
>
>
>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:22:39 -0700, Dick <LeadWinger> wrote:
>
>>The Accord uses a 12KW electric assist motor (68mm thick) sandwiched
>>between the engine and automatic transmission. The V-6 is basically
>>the same 240HP engine, but with lighter components and variable
>>cylinder management so it can run on 3 cylinders when appropriate. It
>>should be noted that this is not your Prius type vehicle. It produces
>>255 horsepower, and cuts 1/2 second off the 0-60 time of the current
>>V-6.
>>
>>
>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:38:04 GMT, Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, the Prius has one electric motor (that doubles as a generator) and
>>>one separate generator. The Honda Insight and the Honda Civic Hybrid
>>>does not have this system. Honda has one single unit (that operates in
>>>motor or generator mode) sandwiched between the engine and the
>>>transmission.
>>>
>>>I don't know if the Accord will use a system similar to the Civic and
>>>Insight (mild hybrid) or if it will have a Prius-like system (full
>>>hybrid). I know my preference would be the much simpler mild hybrid
>>>system.
>
>----
>elbert.clarke@**us.army.mil
>remove the ** to email

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:48:31 GMT, dm@nospam.com (Dave) wrote:

>
>The Escape uses a 94 hp (70 kW output) traction motor. If it has
>a 90% efficiency, that requires 78 kW of input electric. This
>cannot be met by a c. 30 kW battery! So, when the traction motor
>is running full out, well more than half of its power is coming
>from the IC engine!

Assuming your numbers are correct the question is, why? What is
gained by converting kinetic energy from the engine into electricity
(at whatever efficiency) then converting it back into kinetic energy
(at assumed 90% efficiency) just to feed it back into the same drive
train that the engine was directly connected to?

I am also curious about how all hybrids are rated for fuel efficiency.
It seems that the EPA test would be biased unless it results in the
batteries being at the exact same state of charge at the end of the
test as at the beginning. Otherwise you could show up with full
batteries and nearly exhaust them before starting the engine for the
last quarter of the test. The result would be a fantastic gas milage
number that would be meaningless in the real world.

yea I know its 15hp........

I wouldn't think the production volume of the hybrid
would justy any real differences.

Just seems kind of funny that the hybrid makes more HP
even though its just by a small amount.

Guess we'll see how well the hybrids run.....I don't think
I'll buy one anytime soon.


On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:14:50 -0700, Dick <LeadWinger> wrote:

>If you read what you quoted below your post, you will see that it is
>15HP. 255 - 240 = 15.
>
>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:48:39 -0500, Elbert
><elbert.clarke@**adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>I thought I read on the honda web site that the hybrid accord
>>has more hp than the regular v-6 accord? Anyone know
>>what the difference is?
>>
>>
>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:22:39 -0700, Dick <LeadWinger> wrote:
>>
>>>The Accord uses a 12KW electric assist motor (68mm thick) sandwiched
>>>between the engine and automatic transmission. The V-6 is basically
>>>the same 240HP engine, but with lighter components and variable
>>>cylinder management so it can run on 3 cylinders when appropriate. It
>>>should be noted that this is not your Prius type vehicle. It produces
>>>255 horsepower, and cuts 1/2 second off the 0-60 time of the current
>>>V-6.
>>>
>>>
>>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:38:04 GMT, Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yes, the Prius has one electric motor (that doubles as a generator) and
>>>>one separate generator. The Honda Insight and the Honda Civic Hybrid
>>>>does not have this system. Honda has one single unit (that operates in
>>>>motor or generator mode) sandwiched between the engine and the
>>>>transmission.
>>>>
>>>>I don't know if the Accord will use a system similar to the Civic and
>>>>Insight (mild hybrid) or if it will have a Prius-like system (full
>>>>hybrid). I know my preference would be the much simpler mild hybrid
>>>>system.
>>
>>----
>>elbert.clarke@**us.army.mil
>>remove the ** to email

----
elbert.clarke@**us.army.mil
remove the ** to email

It makes perfect sense to me. You start with a 240 horsepower Accord
and add to it an electric motor to assist the V-6. Why would that
combination not yield more horsepower? As far as cost, there is a
great deal more equipment involved. Dual A/C compressors as an
example. Unless the hybrid Accord is produced in significantly larger
quantities than the standard Accord, I don't see how the price is
going to come down in the near term.

I just returned from the Honda dealer for the transmission recall on
our 2003. Picked up a brochure on the 2005 hybrid Accord. Anxious to
read it.



On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:27:24 -0500, Elbert
<elbert.clarke@**adelphia.net> wrote:

>
>yea I know its 15hp........
>
>I wouldn't think the production volume of the hybrid
>would justy any real differences.
>
>Just seems kind of funny that the hybrid makes more HP
>even though its just by a small amount.
>
>Guess we'll see how well the hybrids run.....I don't think
>I'll buy one anytime soon.

Gordon McGrew wrote:
>
> I am also curious about how all hybrids are rated for fuel efficiency.
> It seems that the EPA test would be biased unless it results in the
> batteries being at the exact same state of charge at the end of the
> test as at the beginning. Otherwise you could show up with full
> batteries and nearly exhaust them before starting the engine for the
> last quarter of the test. The result would be a fantastic gas milage
> number that would be meaningless in the real world.

Spot on. I do not believe the EPA is testing hybrids differently than
conventional cars, and this would make it possible to tweak a hybrid for
good EPA results without having equally good real-world results.

Prius is EPA rated at 60 city / 51 highway / 55 combined. Road and track
long term test gets 41.5 mpg over 21 k miles. The EPA ratings for
conventional cars are sometimes a little optimistic, but 9.5 mph
deviation is significant.

One of the differences between Honda's mild hybrids and Toyota's full
hybrids is that Toyotas have much larger battery capacity. Along the
lines of your theory about running the EPA test mostly on batteries,
this would mean that Toyotas have a better potential for deceptively
good EPA scores than what Hondas have.

Gordon McGrew wrote:
> I am also curious about how all hybrids are rated for fuel efficiency.
> It seems that the EPA test would be biased unless it results in the
> batteries being at the exact same state of charge at the end of the
> test as at the beginning. Otherwise you could show up with full
> batteries and nearly exhaust them before starting the engine for the
> last quarter of the test. The result would be a fantastic gas milage
> number that would be meaningless in the real world.

There's an article here that talks about what's going on with testing
for hybrids. Not very in depth, but a good start:
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html

In article <g6bbn0tcq065483asa1l83klqm65fjrdmp@4ax.com>, gRmEcMgOrVeEw@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:48:31 GMT, dm@nospam.com (Dave) wrote:

>>The Escape uses a 94 hp (70 kW output) traction motor. If it has
>>a 90% efficiency, that requires 78 kW of input electric. This
>>cannot be met by a c. 30 kW battery! So, when the traction motor
>>is running full out, well more than half of its power is coming
>>from the IC engine!
>
>Assuming your numbers are correct the question is, why? What is
>gained by converting kinetic energy from the engine into electricity
>(at whatever efficiency) then converting it back into kinetic energy
>(at assumed 90% efficiency) just to feed it back into the same drive
>train that the engine was directly connected to?

You're the second one to ask. I'll try to get an answer from
someone who is far more expert than I. One can look at it as an
electrical transmission, with a 90*90=81% efficiency. These
numbers are probably low, so if the motors they chose are very
efficient, say as high as 95%^2=~90% total. A direct manual would
be more efficient. An automatic about the same. But that's only
for this part of the drive. Part of the Prius drive is a parallel
hybrid too. Both combined do allow a lot of optimization of
engine speed and load so you can run the engine in the efficient
load & rpm range, presumably more than making up for the
"transmission" loss. Anyway, I'll try to get a good answer for
both of you.

>I am also curious about how all hybrids are rated for fuel efficiency.
>It seems that the EPA test would be biased unless it results in the
>batteries being at the exact same state of charge at the end of the
>test as at the beginning.

I've asked this Q of fuel economy experts and the answer I get is
that there is a battery state of charge (SOC) equalization
done before calculating the reported EPA fuel economy.

In article <s7fbn09kvm1h5eailig2tkdtdj9jgi7pmh@4ax.com>, Dick <LeadWinger> wrote:
>Dual A/C compressors as an example.

They really use two compressors? One electrical and one off the
shaft? I'm surprised.