Honda Car Forum

CR-V owners--Good news the Government has decided to reopen the CR-V fire
Case.



Honda fire inquiry reopened

Expanded investigation to focus on manufacturer

By Greg Schneider



Updated: 1:13 a.m. ET Sept. 14, 2004


The federal government has reopened and expanded an investigation into
Honda's CR-V sport-utility vehicle, trying to determine why 2003 and 2004
models sometimes catch fire shortly after their initial oil change. The
problem has persisted more than two months after the National Highway
Traffic Safety Administration closed a preliminary investigation into the
fires and related oil leaks in July. At that time the agency agreed with
Honda that the incidents were mostly likely caused by faulty work by service
technicians.

The new inquiry puts the focus back on the manufacturer. Called an
"engineering analysis," the probe is the most serious level of inquiry
conducted by NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigation. Such investigations
lead to vehicle recalls roughly 60 to 80 percent of the time, an agency
spokeswoman said.

Honda has been working to notify its dealers and service technicians about
ways to avoid the problem since mid-July, but continuing reports of new
incidents draw "into question the effectiveness of the service
communication," NHTSA said in the official notice of investigation.

The agency declined to comment further, saying it is against policy to talk
about ongoing investigations.

A Honda spokesman said the company would cooperate with NHTSA and is
continuing to conduct its own probe. "We continue to turn over every stone
to ensure there isn't something else that's a contributing factor, in terms
of the materials or workmanship," Honda spokesman Andy Boyd said. "To this
point we've not been able to identify any defect or other factor, other than
the issue at the dealer level."

The company said the problem seems to be caused by technicians, usually at
dealerships, improperly changing the oil filter during a CR-V's initial oil
change, usually at 5,000 miles or less. The rubber gasket from the
factory-installed filter often sticks to the engine block, and when the new
filter is installed over it, the new filter fails to seal well, and oil
leaks out. The oil sprays onto the CR-V's hot manifold and ignites.

A pristine reputation
Honda says it does not know why the old gasket is so likely to stick to the
engine block or why the 2003 and 2004 model CR-Vs are more prone to this
than other model years or other vehicles. Honda said the company has found
no design changes from earlier model years that would explain why the fires
have occurred in the more recent models.

NHTSA and Honda have identified 71 related incidents involving both model
years, 44 of which resulted in fires. There have been no injuries reported,
but a significant number of the fires consumed the whole vehicle. While the
number of complaints is a small portion of the total estimated 280,000 such
vehicles on the road, experts say the problem's severity and mysterious
origins make it especially troubling.

Honda does not believe news of the fires has scared away potential CR-V
buyers, Boyd said, but sales of the small SUV were down slightly in both
July and August compared with the same months last year, according to Ward's
AutoInfoBank.

Several Honda dealers say they dislike being blamed by the manufacturer,
pointing out that an occasional lapse in an oil change doesn't lead to such
potentially catastrophic results in other vehicles. Michael Shockley,
general manager of Shockley Honda in Frederick, said his dealership has had
two CR-V fires, one last year and one last month, involving different
mechanics.

"The whole shop goes on red alert and -- BAM! -- it happens again," Shockley
said. "When you burn two cars you must apologize to the owners of those
cars; it's kind of a horrible thing to do, right? But in both cases the
customers looked at me and said, 'Please don't fire that mechanic, I don't
think it was his fault.' The customers felt it was the fault of Honda."

The problem, which has lit up online Honda chat groups, aims at the heart of
Honda's reputation as one of the safest and most consumer-friendly of car
companies, said Bob Kurilko, an auto marketing expert at Edmunds.com. "The
publicity of a [possible] forced recall is not good, especially for Honda,
because they have a pristine reputation and want to manage that and protect
it," he said. "Honda acting quickly could jump in front of this thing and
just initiate a voluntary recall, and I think they're going to want to do
that before NHTSA forces them."

But Boyd, the Honda spokesman, said the company believes a recall would be
counter-productive based on current understanding of the problem. Recalling
the vehicles to replace oil filters "wouldn't accomplish anything. You'd
still have a certain percentage having an oil leak or fire," he said. "It's
not that different than the issue running its course."

Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews@shaw.ca (Nino*NoSpam) wrote:

>By Greg Schneider

>Several Honda dealers say they dislike
>being blamed by the manufacturer,
>pointing out that an occasional lapse in
>an oil change doesn't lead to such
>potentially catastrophic results in other
>vehicles. Michael Shockley, general
>manager of Shockley Honda in
>Frederick, said his dealership has had
>two CR-V fires, one last year and one
>last month, involving different
>mechanics.

>"The whole shop goes on red alert and --
>BAM! -- it happens again," Shockley
>said. "When you burn two cars you must
>apologize to the owners of those cars;
>it's kind of a horrible thing to do, right?
>But in both cases the customers looked
>at me and said, 'Please don't fire that
>mechanic, I don't think it was his fault.'
>The customers felt it was the fault of
>Honda."

These two passages support my theory about this problem. Thanks for
posting the update.

>The problem, which has lit up online
>Honda chat groups, aims at the heart of
>Honda's reputation as one of the safest
>and most consumer-friendly of car
>companies, said Bob Kurilko, an auto
>marketing expert at Edmunds.com.

Another point of support about my position.

>"The publicity of a [possible] forced recall
>is not good, especially for Honda,
>because they have a pristine reputation
>and want to manage that and protect it,"
>he said. "Honda acting quickly could
>jump in front of this thing and just
>initiate a voluntary recall, and I think
>they're going to want to do that before
>NHTSA forces them."

Gee, I think 'someone' suggested this and was called a 'fearmonger' or
some such negative.

"ravelation" <ravelation@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17668-4149A8B1-221@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews@shaw.ca (Nino NoSpam) wrote:
>Gee, I think 'someone' suggested this and was called a 'fearmonger' or some
such negative.
Honda needs to get serious about this problem. Cars being consumed by fire
after an initial oil change is not normal. Blaming it on the techs leaving
the old seal behind is insufficient even if that is indeed the exact
problem. If they can't identify why these things burn then they need to
alert service departments to assign someone knowledgeable of the matter to
do the work and then have them test drive the vehicle after the first oil
change. They need to alert the owners in very clear language to be aware of
the potential problem in the event they change the oil themselves or to pass
this information on to whoever is changing the oil for the first time.

Someone left my lugnuts loose and the wheel fell off. Do you think I should
sue the manufacturer for a faulty design?




"K5" <K58814@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ceidnfNIFbLTXdTcRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> "ravelation" <ravelation@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:17668-4149A8B1-221@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
> Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews@shaw.ca (Nino NoSpam) wrote:
> >Gee, I think 'someone' suggested this and was called a 'fearmonger' or
some
> such negative.
> Honda needs to get serious about this problem. Cars being consumed by
fire
> after an initial oil change is not normal. Blaming it on the techs
leaving
> the old seal behind is insufficient even if that is indeed the exact
> problem. If they can't identify why these things burn then they need to
> alert service departments to assign someone knowledgeable of the matter to
> do the work and then have them test drive the vehicle after the first oil
> change. They need to alert the owners in very clear language to be aware
of
> the potential problem in the event they change the oil themselves or to
pass
> this information on to whoever is changing the oil for the first time.
>
>

Might as well. What have you got to lose?

On 9/17/04 7:55 PM, in article zrGdnfPF8ITmGtbcRVn-gg@comcast.com, "Honda
Doc" <tophondadoc@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Someone left my lugnuts loose and the wheel fell off. Do you think I should
> sue the manufacturer for a faulty design?
>
>
>
>
> "K5" <K58814@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ceidnfNIFbLTXdTcRVn-ug@comcast.com...
>> "ravelation" <ravelation@webtv.net> wrote in message
>> news:17668-4149A8B1-221@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
>> Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews@shaw.ca (Nino NoSpam) wrote:
>>> Gee, I think 'someone' suggested this and was called a 'fearmonger' or
> some
>> such negative.
>> Honda needs to get serious about this problem. Cars being consumed by
> fire
>> after an initial oil change is not normal. Blaming it on the techs
> leaving
>> the old seal behind is insufficient even if that is indeed the exact
>> problem. If they can't identify why these things burn then they need to
>> alert service departments to assign someone knowledgeable of the matter to
>> do the work and then have them test drive the vehicle after the first oil
>> change. They need to alert the owners in very clear language to be aware
> of
>> the potential problem in the event they change the oil themselves or to
> pass
>> this information on to whoever is changing the oil for the first time.
>>
>>
>
>

"E. Meyer" <e52.meyer0SPAM@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:BD70FA52.9CAEF%e52.meyer0SPAM@ieee.org...
> Might as well. What have you got to lose?

Your shirt?

>
> On 9/17/04 7:55 PM, in article zrGdnfPF8ITmGtbcRVn-gg@comcast.com, "Honda
> Doc" <tophondadoc@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Someone left my lugnuts loose and the wheel fell off. Do you think I
>> should
>> sue the manufacturer for a faulty design?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "K5" <K58814@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:ceidnfNIFbLTXdTcRVn-ug@comcast.com...
>>> "ravelation" <ravelation@webtv.net> wrote in message
>>> news:17668-4149A8B1-221@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
>>> Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews@shaw.ca (Nino NoSpam) wrote:
>>>> Gee, I think 'someone' suggested this and was called a 'fearmonger' or
>> some
>>> such negative.
>>> Honda needs to get serious about this problem. Cars being consumed by
>> fire
>>> after an initial oil change is not normal. Blaming it on the techs
>> leaving
>>> the old seal behind is insufficient even if that is indeed the exact
>>> problem. If they can't identify why these things burn then they need to
>>> alert service departments to assign someone knowledgeable of the matter
>>> to
>>> do the work and then have them test drive the vehicle after the first
>>> oil
>>> change. They need to alert the owners in very clear language to be aware
>> of
>>> the potential problem in the event they change the oil themselves or to
>> pass
>>> this information on to whoever is changing the oil for the first time.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

In article <ceidnfNIFbLTXdTcRVn-ug@comcast.com>, K58814@yahoo.com says...
>
>
>"ravelation" <ravelation@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:17668-4149A8B1-221@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
>Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews@shaw.ca (Nino NoSpam) wrote:
>>Gee, I think 'someone' suggested this and was called a 'fearmonger' or some
>such negative.
>Honda needs to get serious about this problem. Cars being consumed by fire
>after an initial oil change is not normal. Blaming it on the techs leaving
>the old seal behind is insufficient even if that is indeed the exact
>problem. If they can't identify why these things burn then they need to
>alert service departments to assign someone knowledgeable of the matter to
>do the work and then have them test drive the vehicle after the first oil
>change. They need to alert the owners in very clear language to be aware of
>the potential problem in the event they change the oil themselves or to pass
>this information on to whoever is changing the oil for the first time.

Uh, I thought the reason you took your car to the dealership was to have
someone knowledgeable work on your car. Changing the oil on a car is one
of the simplist things to do. If a mechanic can't do that right, I would
not want them even pumping gas into my car.
-------------
Alex

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:55:23 -0400, "Honda Doc"
<tophondadoc@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Someone left my lugnuts loose and the wheel fell off. Do you think I should
>sue the manufacturer for a faulty design?

If brand new vehicles are losing wheels right and left because
experienced mechanics are failing to tighten them sufficiently on that
make and model only, then yes I think you probably have a case. Even
more so if the manufacturer knew the wheels were coming off regularly.

From what I can gather, (and I welcome any further information) the
oil filter is over the exhaust at a much earlier (hotter) point than
previous designs. It is a fact of life that oil filters sometimes
drip (or even spew) oil. It may not be ideal or even typical, but it
is not an unforeseeable situation. Minimizing the consequences of
foreseeable failures (even or especially failures of humans) is an
important consideration in engineering design. That is why you have
seat belts, air bags and crumple zones. That is why your engine
continues to run when a sensor fails. That is why there is a spare
tire in your trunk.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:55:23 -0400, "Honda Doc"
<tophondadoc@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Someone left my lugnuts loose and the wheel fell off. Do you think I should
>sue the manufacturer for a faulty design?
>
>
>
>
>"K5" <K58814@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:ceidnfNIFbLTXdTcRVn-ug@comcast.com...
>> "ravelation" <ravelation@webtv.net> wrote in message
>> news:17668-4149A8B1-221@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
>> Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews@shaw.ca (Nino NoSpam) wrote:
>> >Gee, I think 'someone' suggested this and was called a 'fearmonger' or
>some
>> such negative.
>> Honda needs to get serious about this problem. Cars being consumed by
>fire
>> after an initial oil change is not normal. Blaming it on the techs
>leaving
>> the old seal behind is insufficient even if that is indeed the exact
>> problem. If they can't identify why these things burn then they need to
>> alert service departments to assign someone knowledgeable of the matter to
>> do the work and then have them test drive the vehicle after the first oil
>> change. They need to alert the owners in very clear language to be aware
>of
>> the potential problem in the event they change the oil themselves or to
>pass
>> this information on to whoever is changing the oil for the first time.
>>
>>
>

Leave the lugnuts comparably loose on any car, and the wheel will fall
off. The CR-V is no better or no worse than any other comparable
vehicle. This is not faulty design... just the nature of the beast.

Install an oil filter improperly, and the resulting oil leak will NOT
cause a fire in the vast majority of cars. The same action has been
found to cause fires in a percentage of CR-Vs that the NHTSA considers
high enough to represent a problem.

What's the difference between the CR-V with which a not-uncommon tech
error can have catastrophic results, and other cars with which the
same tech error results in nothing more than an oil leak? The fact
that the NHTSA launched an engineering analysis means that they
consider that there's a strong possibility of a safety related design
defect.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:18:23 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <adr5@columbia.edu>
wrote:

>In article <ceidnfNIFbLTXdTcRVn-ug@comcast.com>, K58814@yahoo.com says...
>>
>>
>>"ravelation" <ravelation@webtv.net> wrote in message
>>news:17668-4149A8B1-221@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
>>Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews@shaw.ca (Nino NoSpam) wrote:
>>>Gee, I think 'someone' suggested this and was called a 'fearmonger' or some
>>such negative.
>>Honda needs to get serious about this problem. Cars being consumed by fire
>>after an initial oil change is not normal. Blaming it on the techs leaving
>>the old seal behind is insufficient even if that is indeed the exact
>>problem. If they can't identify why these things burn then they need to
>>alert service departments to assign someone knowledgeable of the matter to
>>do the work and then have them test drive the vehicle after the first oil
>>change. They need to alert the owners in very clear language to be aware of
>>the potential problem in the event they change the oil themselves or to pass
>>this information on to whoever is changing the oil for the first time.
>
>Uh, I thought the reason you took your car to the dealership was to have
>someone knowledgeable work on your car. Changing the oil on a car is one
>of the simplist things to do. If a mechanic can't do that right, I would
>not want them even pumping gas into my car.
>-------------
>Alex
>

Unfortunately, you can't be sure that you're going to get the highly
trained, highly paid staff for a simple oil change. To manage service
resources and save money, many dealerships train low paid staff like
lot attendants to do minor maintenance procedures like changing oil
and rotating tires.