Honda Car Forum

I have been working a friend's 1990 Civic and have posted on both this
and
the Toyota news group. One fo the regualrs in the Toyota group made
these suggetions:

Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote in message news:<Xns955C659818CDCteggeratistop@207.14.113.17> ...
> r2000swler@hotmail.com (Terry) muttered darkly in some shipage for clearity.
> If you are checking the piston and crank pulley relationship with a dowel,
> you are not checking the camshaft alignment! The pistons and the crank
> pulley are keyed together and cannot come out of phase unless the pulley
> was installed without the Woodruff key.
>
>
> NOTE: NEVER TURN THE ENGINE *CLOCKWISE* WITH A WRENCH! You CAN do this if
> you're just trying to get the valves in just the right spot for adjustment,
> but no further.
>
>
> Here is a quick was of testing to see if the camshaft is properly timed to
> the crankshaft:
> 1) Turn engine ***CCW*** so that the middle mark of the group of three is
> in line with the timing pointer.
> 2) At other end of engine, remove spark plug wires from dist cap.
> 3) Take careful measurments so you know exactly where the center of the #1
> spark plug wire receptacle is in the distributor cap.
> 4) Remove distributor cap and check the position of the distributor rotor.
> It ought to be dead on in the exact same spot as the #1 plug wire
> receptacle was in the distributor cap.
>
> If the rotor is way off, then the belt has slipped and the valve timing
> will be way off as well.
> >
> --
> TeGGeR®
some more snipage for clearity.

The t-belt does not appear to have slipped.
Made the tests you suggested and everthing looks good.
She has borrowed her uncle's ancient farm pickup until
we get this resolved.
I thought maybe the ignition was weak but it is as strong as mine.
See my post on Ignition tester.
So waht else can cause a "back blow"
It is NOT coming back through the throttle body, but from the large
1/2" hose that appears to come from the EACV. What symptons would
jammed(open) EGR valves produce? It only happens when the ignition
and fuel systems are alive.
I am going back Wednesday afternoon(if weather permits, we have 1~5"
of rain forecast!), with a scope and check the outputs from the sensor
coils in the ignition. I have looked at mine and will use them as a
refference.
All the other sensors, PA, TA, water temp, air temp, MAP, have voltage
and the returns at the ECM look to be valid. I am learning way more
then I ever wanted about ECM systems!

Terry
------------------------------------------
Follow up. I suspected the ignitor, but I found an AmPro Ignition
tester, a basic half hollow plastic tube with a male to mate with
the spark plug socket, an adjustable gap, with calibration points
for "standard(old sytle points), and E (electroninc), and a lead
with a clip for grounding. For 7$ it was a steal (at Advance Auto).
I compared the spark in the non starting Civic, with mine and they
both have hot long arcs. Testing with a sparkplug will only find
major problems, because much more voltage is required at peak
compression then at normal atomospheric preasure. A friend's 30
year old truck was running, but missing badly. A test with a spark
plug showed a nice hot spark, but when tested with the tester,
but the arc would not jump at the S position. He replaced the igniton
coil the arc jumped at the S position, and more importantly, the
engine
now runs fine.
Has anyone had an experience where the ignitor cause late ignition
firing? I intend to use a dual channel scope to compare the fire
signal
in my car from the ECM to the ignitor, and from my HV out, to see if
there is any delay and do the same test on the non starting Civic.
Given the moonson today this will have to wait unitl Thursday or
Friday.
Does anyone have any ideas on what I may have missed?

Terry

1. check the position of the leads in the distributor cap. i've seen
people swear up, down & sideways that they never touched the ignition
leads, but when you redo it, the car mysteriously starts. funny how
that is.

2. now you've eliminated ignition sequence, focus on the blowback. if
it really is blowing back, there's only 3 possibilities:

i. cam timing off.
ii. burnt/dropped valve
iii. broken head or block.

the first you can check with a compression tester. the second by
redoing the belt thing again - making sure you're not 180 degrees off.
third, by physical inspection, but a compression test should give you a
clue here too.

3. when you're absolutely certain the blowback issue is resolved, and be
sure it /is/ blowing back, not just making noise, /then/ go back to the
electrical/spark stuff. any electrical testing in the world is a
complete waste if you're trying to ignite an empty cylinder or an
exhaust cycle.

Terry wrote:
> I have been working a friend's 1990 Civic and have posted on both this
> and
> the Toyota news group. One fo the regualrs in the Toyota group made
> these suggetions:
>
> Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote in message news:<Xns955C659818CDCteggeratistop@207.14.113.17> ...
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com (Terry) muttered darkly in some shipage for clearity.
>>If you are checking the piston and crank pulley relationship with a dowel,
>>you are not checking the camshaft alignment! The pistons and the crank
>>pulley are keyed together and cannot come out of phase unless the pulley
>>was installed without the Woodruff key.
>>
>>
>>NOTE: NEVER TURN THE ENGINE *CLOCKWISE* WITH A WRENCH! You CAN do this if
>>you're just trying to get the valves in just the right spot for adjustment,
>>but no further.
>>
>>
>>Here is a quick was of testing to see if the camshaft is properly timed to
>>the crankshaft:
>>1) Turn engine ***CCW*** so that the middle mark of the group of three is
>>in line with the timing pointer.
>>2) At other end of engine, remove spark plug wires from dist cap.
>>3) Take careful measurments so you know exactly where the center of the #1
>>spark plug wire receptacle is in the distributor cap.
>>4) Remove distributor cap and check the position of the distributor rotor.
>>It ought to be dead on in the exact same spot as the #1 plug wire
>>receptacle was in the distributor cap.
>>
>>If the rotor is way off, then the belt has slipped and the valve timing
>>will be way off as well.
>>
>>--
>>TeGGeR®
>
> some more snipage for clearity.
>
> The t-belt does not appear to have slipped.
> Made the tests you suggested and everthing looks good.
> She has borrowed her uncle's ancient farm pickup until
> we get this resolved.
> I thought maybe the ignition was weak but it is as strong as mine.
> See my post on Ignition tester.
> So waht else can cause a "back blow"
> It is NOT coming back through the throttle body, but from the large
> 1/2" hose that appears to come from the EACV. What symptons would
> jammed(open) EGR valves produce? It only happens when the ignition
> and fuel systems are alive.
> I am going back Wednesday afternoon(if weather permits, we have 1~5"
> of rain forecast!), with a scope and check the outputs from the sensor
> coils in the ignition. I have looked at mine and will use them as a
> refference.
> All the other sensors, PA, TA, water temp, air temp, MAP, have voltage
> and the returns at the ECM look to be valid. I am learning way more
> then I ever wanted about ECM systems!
>
> Terry
> ------------------------------------------
> Follow up. I suspected the ignitor, but I found an AmPro Ignition
> tester, a basic half hollow plastic tube with a male to mate with
> the spark plug socket, an adjustable gap, with calibration points
> for "standard(old sytle points), and E (electroninc), and a lead
> with a clip for grounding. For 7$ it was a steal (at Advance Auto).
> I compared the spark in the non starting Civic, with mine and they
> both have hot long arcs. Testing with a sparkplug will only find
> major problems, because much more voltage is required at peak
> compression then at normal atomospheric preasure. A friend's 30
> year old truck was running, but missing badly. A test with a spark
> plug showed a nice hot spark, but when tested with the tester,
> but the arc would not jump at the S position. He replaced the igniton
> coil the arc jumped at the S position, and more importantly, the
> engine
> now runs fine.
> Has anyone had an experience where the ignitor cause late ignition
> firing? I intend to use a dual channel scope to compare the fire
> signal
> in my car from the ECM to the ignitor, and from my HV out, to see if
> there is any delay and do the same test on the non starting Civic.
> Given the moonson today this will have to wait unitl Thursday or
> Friday.
> Does anyone have any ideas on what I may have missed?
>
> Terry

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:<4-SdnWaVEoaYkqLcRVn-jg@comcast.com>...
> 1. check the position of the leads in the distributor cap. i've seen
> people swear up, down & sideways that they never touched the ignition
> leads, but when you redo it, the car mysteriously starts. funny how
> that is.
>
> 2. now you've eliminated ignition sequence, focus on the blowback. if
> it really is blowing back, there's only 3 possibilities:
>
> i. cam timing off.
> ii. burnt/dropped valve
> iii. broken head or block.
>
> the first you can check with a compression tester. the second by
> redoing the belt thing again - making sure you're not 180 degrees off.
> third, by physical inspection, but a compression test should give you a
> clue here too.
>
> 3. when you're absolutely certain the blowback issue is resolved, and be
> sure it /is/ blowing back, not just making noise, /then/ go back to the
> electrical/spark stuff. any electrical testing in the world is a
> complete waste if you're trying to ignite an empty cylinder or an
> exhaust cycle.
>
My old compression cauge willnot fit down into the recessed Civic
sparkplug holes. I have arranged to borrow one Friday and will test the compression.
Thanks
Terry