Honda Car Forum

98 Prelude 91K 16x50x205 tires
This set of tires has 45K on them and according to the manufacturer is
about all that can be expected from them. The rest of the tread has
about 10K of tread life on them. Is this common on a performance
tire? or should I be looking ar a 4 wheel alignment with the new
tires?
thanks tom

On 7/13/04 10:17 AM, in article
eaadaf9c.0407130717.21d1c322@posting.google.com, "Tjacobs"
<thomas.jacobs@dva.state.wi.us> wrote:

> 98 Prelude 91K 16x50x205 tires
> This set of tires has 45K on them and according to the manufacturer is
> about all that can be expected from them. The rest of the tread has
> about 10K of tread life on them. Is this common on a performance
> tire? or should I be looking ar a 4 wheel alignment with the new
> tires?
> thanks tom

Wear on the inside edge only indicates an alignment problem.

"Tjacobs" <thomas.jacobs@dva.state.wi.us> wrote in message
news:eaadaf9c.0407130717.21d1c322@posting.google.c om...
> 98 Prelude 91K 16x50x205 tires
> This set of tires has 45K on them and according to the manufacturer is
> about all that can be expected from them. The rest of the tread has
> about 10K of tread life on them. Is this common on a performance
> tire? or should I be looking ar a 4 wheel alignment with the new
> tires?
> thanks tom

Are these the original Bridgestone Potenza RE92 205/50R16s? If so, then
45Kmiles is reasonable depending on driving style and road surfaces.

I just replaced them on my 99 Prelude. Got over 55K miles with just
slightly more wear on the inside edge, but pretty uniform across all four.
Would have kept them until winter, but found a nasty 1" cut through the
steel belts right at the edge of the tread and inner sidewall on one tire,
but still holding air okay. Alot of people hated those tires (just check
www.Tirerack.com for ratings and comments about bad traction, loud noise,
terrible treadwear etc.), but I thought they were better than the OEM
Michelin XGTVs and replacement Dunlop D60A2s on my old 90 Prelude.

Bought replacement Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S from Tirerack after seeing all of
the positive reviews of this Ultra High Performance All Weather tire on
their site. With only 300 miles, no complaints. It will be interesting to
see how this treadwear rating of 400 compares to the OEM RE92 rating of 160
(can I really expect over 137Kmiles? - lol).

Be aware that U.S. Pirelli cannot explain whether this tire has the
advertised UTOG traction rating of 'AA' or just 'A'. Tirerack, NHTSA and
U.S. Pirelli claim the superior AA rating, but the sidewalls of all four
tires say A. Pirelli says this tire used to be made in the US and the new
compound did test at AA. However, production was shipped to Germany (my
tires are dated 4th week of 2004 and marked 'Germany') and U.S. Pirelli is
still trying to get an answer from the factory as to what compound and what
rating the tires really have.

J.

On 13 Jul 2004 08:17:01 -0700, thomas.jacobs@dva.state.wi.us (Tjacobs)
wrote:

>98 Prelude 91K 16x50x205 tires
>This set of tires has 45K on them and according to the manufacturer is
>about all that can be expected from them. The rest of the tread has
>about 10K of tread life on them. Is this common on a performance
>tire? or should I be looking ar a 4 wheel alignment with the new
>tires?

45K on even a semi-performance tire is good IMO. Tires which last longer
are miserable to drive. Perfectly even tire wear is kinda rare as well
unless you drive on roads which are perfectly flat - the "railroad
tracking" effect of the lanes of major highways by heavy trucks is bound to
cause more wear on the inner edge of the tires. Then there's normal
two-lane highways which can have a high crown.

I'd say it's unlikely you have a major alignment problem and there's no
alignment corrections which are possible with your car which would correct
the wear pattern you have, apart from toe-in. As the Honda double wishbone
suspension ages, it *does* tend to settle a bit and get some change towards
toe-out in the front wheels. When I see increased wear on the front
inners, I* just crank 1/4 turn on each tie-rod to reduce toe-out.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George Macdonald wrote:

> 45K on even a semi-performance tire is good IMO. Tires which last longer
> are miserable to drive. Perfectly even tire wear is kinda rare as well
> unless you drive on roads which are perfectly flat - the "railroad
> tracking" effect of the lanes of major highways by heavy trucks is bound to
> cause more wear on the inner edge of the tires. Then there's normal
> two-lane highways which can have a high crown.
>
> I'd say it's unlikely you have a major alignment problem and there's no
> alignment corrections which are possible with your car which would correct
> the wear pattern you have, apart from toe-in. As the Honda double wishbone
> suspension ages, it *does* tend to settle a bit and get some change towards
> toe-out in the front wheels. When I see increased wear on the front
> inners, I* just crank 1/4 turn on each tie-rod to reduce toe-out.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

I also have extra inner wear on my front tires. I got an alignment when
I got these tires (car is 48K) 7K ago. At that time, they said the
front camber was -.5 deg. But the wear pattern suggests the camber is
more like -1.x degree. Did they lie? I think you'd need to install a
camber kit to adjust it anyway, so if I took it back could they actually
do anything? I had thought maybe the extra inner wear was due to hard
braking or trail braking where you cause the front end to dive and the
wheels to negative camber. Maybe I should get my toe checked, as you
suggest.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:02:27 -0700, alan <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com> wrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>
>> 45K on even a semi-performance tire is good IMO. Tires which last longer
>> are miserable to drive. Perfectly even tire wear is kinda rare as well
>> unless you drive on roads which are perfectly flat - the "railroad
>> tracking" effect of the lanes of major highways by heavy trucks is bound to
>> cause more wear on the inner edge of the tires. Then there's normal
>> two-lane highways which can have a high crown.
>>
>> I'd say it's unlikely you have a major alignment problem and there's no
>> alignment corrections which are possible with your car which would correct
>> the wear pattern you have, apart from toe-in. As the Honda double wishbone
>> suspension ages, it *does* tend to settle a bit and get some change towards
>> toe-out in the front wheels. When I see increased wear on the front
>> inners, I* just crank 1/4 turn on each tie-rod to reduce toe-out.
>>
>> Rgds, George Macdonald
>>
>> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
>
>I also have extra inner wear on my front tires. I got an alignment when
>I got these tires (car is 48K) 7K ago. At that time, they said the
>front camber was -.5 deg. But the wear pattern suggests the camber is
>more like -1.x degree. Did they lie?

<shrug> There's more to tire wear than camber. Your camber measurement is
well within specs.

> I think you'd need to install a
>camber kit to adjust it anyway, so if I took it back could they actually
>do anything? I had thought maybe the extra inner wear was due to hard
>braking or trail braking where you cause the front end to dive and the
>wheels to negative camber. Maybe I should get my toe checked, as you
>suggest.

The Honda spec, for most of their cars, for front toe is 0 +/-2mm. If you
have a minor wear anomaly -- and slight uneveness at 41K miles *is* minor
-- you can correct it as I suggested. It's easy enough to do yourself but
if you take it to someone, tell them you want slightly more toe-in that it
currently has. Experience has shown that the cars do not always come from
the factory with the alignment calibrated to the middle of the spec range.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Is this common on a performance
> tire? or should I be looking ar a 4 wheel alignment with the new
> tires?
> thanks tom

I'd add that it is pretty common to cars in general, especially those
without camber adjustments. A little edge wear won't hurt, and even
if moderate toe-out is the cause, it will just make the car a little
less responsive to steering input and cost a bit of extra gas.

Just sounds to me like it is time for new tires. Put the alignment
money into some good ones.

JM

George Macdonald wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:02:27 -0700, alan <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>George Macdonald wrote:

>>>I'd say it's unlikely you have a major alignment problem and there's no
>>>alignment corrections which are possible with your car which would correct
>>>the wear pattern you have, apart from toe-in. As the Honda double wishbone
>>>suspension ages, it *does* tend to settle a bit and get some change towards
>>>toe-out in the front wheels. When I see increased wear on the front
>>>inners, I* just crank 1/4 turn on each tie-rod to reduce toe-out.

> The Honda spec, for most of their cars, for front toe is 0 +/-2mm. If you
> have a minor wear anomaly -- and slight uneveness at 41K miles *is* minor
> -- you can correct it as I suggested. It's easy enough to do yourself but
> if you take it to someone, tell them you want slightly more toe-in that it
> currently has. Experience has shown that the cars do not always come from
> the factory with the alignment calibrated to the middle of the spec range.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

So I measured the toe today with a tape measure (accuracy ~1/16"), and
there might be 1/8-3/16 of toe out, as measured between the lower front
and read edges of the tires (i.e. measured the tires at 4.5 o'clock and
7.5 o'clock coz otherwise bits of the underbody get in the way. I
cranked the tie rods a bit, and it is better now. In your experience,
how much did the suspersion on your Integra toe out with time? Also,
does it continue to toe out over the life of the car?

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 21:33:46 -0700, alan <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com> wrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:02:27 -0700, alan <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>George Macdonald wrote:
>
>>>>I'd say it's unlikely you have a major alignment problem and there's no
>>>>alignment corrections which are possible with your car which would correct
>>>>the wear pattern you have, apart from toe-in. As the Honda double wishbone
>>>>suspension ages, it *does* tend to settle a bit and get some change towards
>>>>toe-out in the front wheels. When I see increased wear on the front
>>>>inners, I* just crank 1/4 turn on each tie-rod to reduce toe-out.
>
>> The Honda spec, for most of their cars, for front toe is 0 +/-2mm. If you
>> have a minor wear anomaly -- and slight uneveness at 41K miles *is* minor
>> -- you can correct it as I suggested. It's easy enough to do yourself but
>> if you take it to someone, tell them you want slightly more toe-in that it
>> currently has. Experience has shown that the cars do not always come from
>> the factory with the alignment calibrated to the middle of the spec range.
>>
>> Rgds, George Macdonald
>>
>> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
>
>So I measured the toe today with a tape measure (accuracy ~1/16"), and
>there might be 1/8-3/16 of toe out, as measured between the lower front
>and read edges of the tires (i.e. measured the tires at 4.5 o'clock and
>7.5 o'clock coz otherwise bits of the underbody get in the way. I
>cranked the tie rods a bit, and it is better now. In your experience,
>how much did the suspersion on your Integra toe out with time? Also,
>does it continue to toe out over the life of the car?

Hard to say - my '92 Integra suffered a broken spring at ~60K miles which
didn't help to keep track of wear characteristics and an eventual change of
shocks(KYB GR-2s)/springs(OE), after the other front spring broke, muddied
things even more. IIRC I turned the tie-rods out once on our '90 Civic in
~120K miles, fairly early in its life, since I was sure it came from the
factory with toe-out at the limit.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George Macdonald wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 21:33:46 -0700, alan <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>So I measured the toe today with a tape measure (accuracy ~1/16"), and
>>there might be 1/8-3/16 of toe out, as measured between the lower front
>>and read edges of the tires (i.e. measured the tires at 4.5 o'clock and
>>7.5 o'clock coz otherwise bits of the underbody get in the way. I
>>cranked the tie rods a bit, and it is better now. In your experience,
>>how much did the suspersion on your Integra toe out with time? Also,
>>does it continue to toe out over the life of the car?
>
>
> Hard to say - my '92 Integra suffered a broken spring at ~60K miles which
> didn't help to keep track of wear characteristics and an eventual change of
> shocks(KYB GR-2s)/springs(OE), after the other front spring broke, muddied
> things even more. IIRC I turned the tie-rods out once on our '90 Civic in
> ~120K miles, fairly early in its life, since I was sure it came from the
> factory with toe-out at the limit.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

When I bought the car at 48K, it had a small amount of toe out, which
was fixed when I got new tires. I re-measured the toe at 55K and got
the above numbers. However, I do drive the car a lot harder than the
previous owner. Is this amount of toe-out abnormal after such a short time?