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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 31 Dec 2012, 08:31 am
KWW
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Posts: n/a
Default Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

Fellow newsgroup citizens, we used to be a (nearly) all Honda family - 3
Hondas and 1 classic VW Beetle (1965). On our earlier Hondas I replaced
timing belts, entire engines, and some other parts myself. Now, however,
the 2 remaining Honda cars I and my in-laws have seem to reflect a
company that has lost its way. Since these are 2002 and 2003 Models
(Civic and Accord, respectively) I wanted to get some feedback as to
whether things have gotten back on track. Here are my observations
based on the 2 Hondas we have:

1) there seem to be some design weaknesses which are common across the
platforms. Maybe while trying to be light weight (and less expensive?)
they made things less durable. One example is the steering rack. Both
cars had to have the rack replaced (Accord at 90k miles and Civic and
134k miles). Both developed oil leaks that took about $600 to track
down/fix - oil pump seals, oil pan seal, and some things on top of the
motor even though when the timing belt was replaced all seals, including
valve cover seal were replace by the dealer.

2) The Hondas are even less easy to work on yourself. The oil filter is
very hard to reach. On Civics there is very little room for standard
wrenches if you want to do engine work. I compared that with Hyundai
cars where the Hyundai frames even have indentations which coincide with
where your hand would travel when turning a wrench when replacing a
timing belt, oil filter is down low where it is easy to reach, etc.

3) The parts are expensive and the engineering is a bit too complex (so
more things to go wrong).

From what I have heard from some Toyota owners that brand seems to have
also lost its way and has been cutting corners on part/design quality to
keep costs down. So do you folks think that the current (newer) crop of
Hondas have found their stride and are again great cars or are they not
as great as they used to be in the '80's and '90's?

Thanks!

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 31 Dec 2012, 09:01 am
Douglas C. Neidermeyer
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

On 12/31/12 9:31 AM, KWW wrote:
> Fellow newsgroup citizens, we used to be a (nearly) all Honda family - 3
> Hondas and 1 classic VW Beetle (1965). On our earlier Hondas I replaced
> timing belts, entire engines, and some other parts myself. Now, however,
> the 2 remaining Honda cars I and my in-laws have seem to reflect a
> company that has lost its way. Since these are 2002 and 2003 Models
> (Civic and Accord, respectively) I wanted to get some feedback as to
> whether things have gotten back on track. Here are my observations
> based on the 2 Hondas we have:
>
> 1) there seem to be some design weaknesses which are common across the
> platforms. Maybe while trying to be light weight (and less expensive?)
> they made things less durable. One example is the steering rack. Both
> cars had to have the rack replaced (Accord at 90k miles and Civic and
> 134k miles). Both developed oil leaks that took about $600 to track
> down/fix - oil pump seals, oil pan seal, and some things on top of the
> motor even though when the timing belt was replaced all seals, including
> valve cover seal were replace by the dealer.
>
> 2) The Hondas are even less easy to work on yourself. The oil filter is
> very hard to reach. On Civics there is very little room for standard
> wrenches if you want to do engine work. I compared that with Hyundai
> cars where the Hyundai frames even have indentations which coincide with
> where your hand would travel when turning a wrench when replacing a
> timing belt, oil filter is down low where it is easy to reach, etc.
>
> 3) The parts are expensive and the engineering is a bit too complex (so
> more things to go wrong).
>
> From what I have heard from some Toyota owners that brand seems to have
> also lost its way and has been cutting corners on part/design quality to
> keep costs down. So do you folks think that the current (newer) crop of
> Hondas have found their stride and are again great cars or are they not
> as great as they used to be in the '80's and '90's?
>
> Thanks!
>



Yes, that's definitely a good way to determine what's really going on!!

Just go ahead and ask the 35-40 or so folks who post here for their
opinion-- rather that look at the Consumer Reports detailed automotive
reliability survey with hundreds of thousands of responses classified
and analyzed by professional statisticians.

Yup, good post dude.


--
We have a spending problem, not a failure to raise taxes problem.
--Grover Norquist
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 31 Dec 2012, 09:06 am
tww1491
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?



"KWW" wrote in message news:kbs7j9$1ugb$1@adenine.netfront.net...

Fellow newsgroup citizens, we used to be a (nearly) all Honda family - 3
Hondas and 1 classic VW Beetle (1965). On our earlier Hondas I replaced
timing belts, entire engines, and some other parts myself. Now, however,
the 2 remaining Honda cars I and my in-laws have seem to reflect a
company that has lost its way. Since these are 2002 and 2003 Models
(Civic and Accord, respectively) I wanted to get some feedback as to
whether things have gotten back on track. Here are my observations
based on the 2 Hondas we have:

1) there seem to be some design weaknesses which are common across the
platforms. Maybe while trying to be light weight (and less expensive?)
they made things less durable. One example is the steering rack. Both
cars had to have the rack replaced (Accord at 90k miles and Civic and
134k miles). Both developed oil leaks that took about $600 to track
down/fix - oil pump seals, oil pan seal, and some things on top of the
motor even though when the timing belt was replaced all seals, including
valve cover seal were replace by the dealer.

2) The Hondas are even less easy to work on yourself. The oil filter is
very hard to reach. On Civics there is very little room for standard
wrenches if you want to do engine work. I compared that with Hyundai
cars where the Hyundai frames even have indentations which coincide with
where your hand would travel when turning a wrench when replacing a
timing belt, oil filter is down low where it is easy to reach, etc.

3) The parts are expensive and the engineering is a bit too complex (so
more things to go wrong).

From what I have heard from some Toyota owners that brand seems to have
also lost its way and has been cutting corners on part/design quality to
keep costs down. So do you folks think that the current (newer) crop of
Hondas have found their stride and are again great cars or are they not
as great as they used to be in the '80's and '90's?

Thanks!

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

In general, I think the consensus will be that Honda is not the company that
it was in the past when the "old man" was still around. For my part, I
would say the 01 Prelude I had was a great car and the 05 S2000 I now
represents the best of the Honda. We have had no problems with an I4 06
Accord coupe which is now at 100k miles or the 09 CRV with 63k. So, our
experience with Honda is pretty decent. Honda has had some negatives with
their recent models -- the Civic for example. Honda apparently, has
recognized this and has made several changes which improve the car. Hyundai
and Kia have produced really decent cars, but locally I would not buy them
because of the dealership's involved. But, I am just not in the market
anyway.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 31 Dec 2012, 02:47 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

In article <kbs7j9$1ugb$1@adenine.netfront.net>,
KWW <kirkdotwalker@aircooled.net> wrote:

> Fellow newsgroup citizens, we used to be a (nearly) all Honda family - 3
> Hondas and 1 classic VW Beetle (1965). On our earlier Hondas I replaced
> timing belts, entire engines, and some other parts myself. Now, however,
> the 2 remaining Honda cars I and my in-laws have seem to reflect a
> company that has lost its way. Since these are 2002 and 2003 Models
> (Civic and Accord, respectively) I wanted to get some feedback as to
> whether things have gotten back on track. Here are my observations
> based on the 2 Hondas we have:
>
> 1) there seem to be some design weaknesses which are common across the
> platforms. Maybe while trying to be light weight (and less expensive?)
> they made things less durable. One example is the steering rack. Both
> cars had to have the rack replaced (Accord at 90k miles and Civic and
> 134k miles). Both developed oil leaks that took about $600 to track
> down/fix - oil pump seals, oil pan seal, and some things on top of the
> motor even though when the timing belt was replaced all seals, including
> valve cover seal were replace by the dealer.
>
> 2) The Hondas are even less easy to work on yourself. The oil filter is
> very hard to reach. On Civics there is very little room for standard
> wrenches if you want to do engine work. I compared that with Hyundai
> cars where the Hyundai frames even have indentations which coincide with
> where your hand would travel when turning a wrench when replacing a
> timing belt, oil filter is down low where it is easy to reach, etc.
>
> 3) The parts are expensive and the engineering is a bit too complex (so
> more things to go wrong).
>
> From what I have heard from some Toyota owners that brand seems to have
> also lost its way and has been cutting corners on part/design quality to
> keep costs down. So do you folks think that the current (newer) crop of
> Hondas have found their stride and are again great cars or are they not
> as great as they used to be in the '80's and '90's?
>
> Thanks!


Nope.

Not gonna get any better, either.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01 Jan 2013, 06:57 am
KWW
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

Sir. I may look at Edmunds, KBB, and some other places, however as to
the other sources, I USED to be a member of Consum Rpts until I received
their detailed auto survey. I had an automobile that had some real
design issues and I discovered that the questions in their survey were
so poorly written that the various issues which my car had would be
diluted over a number of categories depending upon how I or others felt
they were best categorized.

In addition, it never hurts to have additional data points. I was not
trolling this group by asking my question. I genuinely was hoping for
additional anecdotal information in hopes that I might confirm that the
issues I was observing were in fact indicative of a previous generation
of Hondas but that they had been remedied in subsequent ones. Yes one
has to sift through the results but some trends might have emerged which
I could then try to correlate against either the aforementioned media
sources or directly with a service writer friend at a dealership.

Oh well, happy new year!

On 12/31/2012 9:01 AM, Douglas C. Neidermeyer wrote:
> On 12/31/12 9:31 AM, KWW wrote:
>> Fellow newsgroup citizens, we used to be a (nearly) all Honda family - 3
>> Hondas and 1 classic VW Beetle (1965). On our earlier Hondas I replaced
>> timing belts, entire engines, and some other parts myself. Now, however,
>> the 2 remaining Honda cars I and my in-laws have seem to reflect a
>> company that has lost its way. Since these are 2002 and 2003 Models
>> (Civic and Accord, respectively) I wanted to get some feedback as to
>> whether things have gotten back on track. Here are my observations
>> based on the 2 Hondas we have:
>>
>> 1) there seem to be some design weaknesses which are common across the
>> platforms. Maybe while trying to be light weight (and less expensive?)
>> they made things less durable. One example is the steering rack. Both
>> cars had to have the rack replaced (Accord at 90k miles and Civic and
>> 134k miles). Both developed oil leaks that took about $600 to track
>> down/fix - oil pump seals, oil pan seal, and some things on top of the
>> motor even though when the timing belt was replaced all seals, including
>> valve cover seal were replace by the dealer.
>>
>> 2) The Hondas are even less easy to work on yourself. The oil filter is
>> very hard to reach. On Civics there is very little room for standard
>> wrenches if you want to do engine work. I compared that with Hyundai
>> cars where the Hyundai frames even have indentations which coincide with
>> where your hand would travel when turning a wrench when replacing a
>> timing belt, oil filter is down low where it is easy to reach, etc.
>>
>> 3) The parts are expensive and the engineering is a bit too complex (so
>> more things to go wrong).
>>
>> From what I have heard from some Toyota owners that brand seems to have
>> also lost its way and has been cutting corners on part/design quality to
>> keep costs down. So do you folks think that the current (newer) crop of
>> Hondas have found their stride and are again great cars or are they not
>> as great as they used to be in the '80's and '90's?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>

>
>
> Yes, that's definitely a good way to determine what's really going on!!
>
> Just go ahead and ask the 35-40 or so folks who post here for their
> opinion-- rather that look at the Consumer Reports detailed automotive
> reliability survey with hundreds of thousands of responses classified
> and analyzed by professional statisticians.
>
> Yup, good post dude.
>
>



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02 Jan 2013, 08:37 am
Douglas C. Neidermeyer
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

On 1/1/13 7:57 AM, KWW wrote:

>
> On 12/31/2012 9:01 AM, Douglas C. Neidermeyer wrote:
>> On 12/31/12 9:31 AM, KWW wrote:
>>> Fellow newsgroup citizens, we used to be a (nearly) all Honda family - 3
>>> Hondas and 1 classic VW Beetle (1965). On our earlier Hondas I replaced
>>> timing belts, entire engines, and some other parts myself. Now, however,
>>> the 2 remaining Honda cars I and my in-laws have seem to reflect a
>>> company that has lost its way. Since these are 2002 and 2003 Models
>>> (Civic and Accord, respectively) I wanted to get some feedback as to
>>> whether things have gotten back on track. Here are my observations
>>> based on the 2 Hondas we have:
>>>
>>> 1) there seem to be some design weaknesses which are common across the
>>> platforms. Maybe while trying to be light weight (and less expensive?)
>>> they made things less durable. One example is the steering rack. Both
>>> cars had to have the rack replaced (Accord at 90k miles and Civic and
>>> 134k miles). Both developed oil leaks that took about $600 to track
>>> down/fix - oil pump seals, oil pan seal, and some things on top of the
>>> motor even though when the timing belt was replaced all seals, including
>>> valve cover seal were replace by the dealer.
>>>
>>> 2) The Hondas are even less easy to work on yourself. The oil filter is
>>> very hard to reach. On Civics there is very little room for standard
>>> wrenches if you want to do engine work. I compared that with Hyundai
>>> cars where the Hyundai frames even have indentations which coincide with
>>> where your hand would travel when turning a wrench when replacing a
>>> timing belt, oil filter is down low where it is easy to reach, etc.
>>>
>>> 3) The parts are expensive and the engineering is a bit too complex (so
>>> more things to go wrong).
>>>
>>> From what I have heard from some Toyota owners that brand seems to have
>>> also lost its way and has been cutting corners on part/design quality to
>>> keep costs down. So do you folks think that the current (newer) crop of
>>> Hondas have found their stride and are again great cars or are they not
>>> as great as they used to be in the '80's and '90's?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>

>>
>>
>> Yes, that's definitely a good way to determine what's really going on!!
>>
>> Just go ahead and ask the 35-40 or so folks who post here for their
>> opinion-- rather that look at the Consumer Reports detailed automotive
>> reliability survey with hundreds of thousands of responses classified
>> and analyzed by professional statisticians.
>>
>> Yup, good post dude.
>>
>>

>
>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---


///TOP POST RELOCATED///

> Sir. I may look at Edmunds, KBB, and some other places, however as to
> the other sources, I USED to be a member of Consum Rpts until I received
> their detailed auto survey. I had an automobile that had some real
> design issues and I discovered that the questions in their survey were
> so poorly written that the various issues which my car had would be
> diluted over a number of categories depending upon how I or others felt
> they were best categorized.
>
> In addition, it never hurts to have additional data points. I was not
> trolling this group by asking my question. I genuinely was hoping for
> additional anecdotal information in hopes that I might confirm that the
> issues I was observing were in fact indicative of a previous generation
> of Hondas but that they had been remedied in subsequent ones. Yes one
> has to sift through the results but some trends might have emerged which
> I could then try to correlate against either the aforementioned media
> sources or directly with a service writer friend at a dealership.
>
> Oh well, happy new year!


The auto survey you mention only addresses reliability-- not design
issues...so your point is irrelevant. If their automotive engineers
agreed with your assessment that there was a design problem, it would
have been addressed in the separately published comprehensive test
report of that model.

Also, don't be a butt head and top post;-)

--
We have a spending problem, not a failure to raise taxes problem.
--Grover Norquist
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jan 2013, 10:58 am
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

On 12/31/2012 06:31 AM, KWW wrote:
> Fellow newsgroup citizens, we used to be a (nearly) all Honda family - 3
> Hondas and 1 classic VW Beetle (1965). On our earlier Hondas I replaced
> timing belts, entire engines, and some other parts myself. Now, however,
> the 2 remaining Honda cars I and my in-laws have seem to reflect a
> company that has lost its way. Since these are 2002 and 2003 Models
> (Civic and Accord, respectively) I wanted to get some feedback as to
> whether things have gotten back on track. Here are my observations based
> on the 2 Hondas we have:
>
> 1) there seem to be some design weaknesses which are common across the
> platforms. Maybe while trying to be light weight (and less expensive?)
> they made things less durable. One example is the steering rack. Both
> cars had to have the rack replaced (Accord at 90k miles and Civic and
> 134k miles). Both developed oil leaks that took about $600 to track
> down/fix - oil pump seals, oil pan seal, and some things on top of the
> motor even though when the timing belt was replaced all seals, including
> valve cover seal were replace by the dealer.
>
> 2) The Hondas are even less easy to work on yourself. The oil filter is
> very hard to reach. On Civics there is very little room for standard
> wrenches if you want to do engine work. I compared that with Hyundai
> cars where the Hyundai frames even have indentations which coincide with
> where your hand would travel when turning a wrench when replacing a
> timing belt, oil filter is down low where it is easy to reach, etc.
>
> 3) The parts are expensive and the engineering is a bit too complex (so
> more things to go wrong).
>
> From what I have heard from some Toyota owners that brand seems to have
> also lost its way and has been cutting corners on part/design quality to
> keep costs down. So do you folks think that the current (newer) crop of
> Hondas have found their stride and are again great cars or are they not
> as great as they used to be in the '80's and '90's?
>
> Thanks!
>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---


yes honda have "lost their way" here in the u.s. but they've got "ex"
frod management who have made a series of "bad" decisions, so whether
their problems are accident [honda] or design [frod] is open to debate.
given that honda's euro models are apparently still excellent, i have
to conclude the latter.


--
fact check required

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jan 2013, 06:34 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

On 12/31/2012 12:47 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<kbs7j9$1ugb$1@adenine.netfront.net>,
> KWW<kirkdotwalker@aircooled.net> wrote:
>
>> Fellow newsgroup citizens, we used to be a (nearly) all Honda family - 3
>> Hondas and 1 classic VW Beetle (1965). On our earlier Hondas I replaced
>> timing belts, entire engines, and some other parts myself. Now, however,
>> the 2 remaining Honda cars I and my in-laws have seem to reflect a
>> company that has lost its way. Since these are 2002 and 2003 Models
>> (Civic and Accord, respectively) I wanted to get some feedback as to
>> whether things have gotten back on track. Here are my observations
>> based on the 2 Hondas we have:
>>
>> 1) there seem to be some design weaknesses which are common across the
>> platforms. Maybe while trying to be light weight (and less expensive?)
>> they made things less durable. One example is the steering rack. Both
>> cars had to have the rack replaced (Accord at 90k miles and Civic and
>> 134k miles). Both developed oil leaks that took about $600 to track
>> down/fix - oil pump seals, oil pan seal, and some things on top of the
>> motor even though when the timing belt was replaced all seals, including
>> valve cover seal were replace by the dealer.
>>
>> 2) The Hondas are even less easy to work on yourself. The oil filter is
>> very hard to reach. On Civics there is very little room for standard
>> wrenches if you want to do engine work. I compared that with Hyundai
>> cars where the Hyundai frames even have indentations which coincide with
>> where your hand would travel when turning a wrench when replacing a
>> timing belt, oil filter is down low where it is easy to reach, etc.
>>
>> 3) The parts are expensive and the engineering is a bit too complex (so
>> more things to go wrong).
>>
>> From what I have heard from some Toyota owners that brand seems to have
>> also lost its way and has been cutting corners on part/design quality to
>> keep costs down. So do you folks think that the current (newer) crop of
>> Hondas have found their stride and are again great cars or are they not
>> as great as they used to be in the '80's and '90's?
>>
>> Thanks!

>
> Nope.
>
> Not gonna get any better, either.


true dat.

late 80's/early 90's were their zenith. the cars that were designed
then and kept in production continued to be ok - i.e. elements of the
accord, the prelude and s2000 are examples. but the stuff that's been
designed new since about '95 [with lead time to get into production
taking up to about 2000] has been very disappointing. the rot has since
then well and truly set in. the civic has been a disgrace since 2001,
the rsx in place of the integra, the dropping of the prelude, the
neutering of the accord with macpherson strut - anyone may as well just
buy a vw and get the same handling but with more guts and the same
reliability. and don't get me started on the ridgeline.


--
fact check required
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jan 2013, 09:36 pm
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

In article <kc7sdu$tsi$1@dont-email.me>, jim beam <me@privacy.net>
wrote:

> anyone may as well just
> buy a vw and get the same handling but with more guts and the same
> reliability.


technically you're correct, but what you really mean is "lack of
reliability"
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04 Jan 2013, 10:57 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Brief "survey". Has Honda lost its way?

On 01/04/2013 07:36 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<kc7sdu$tsi$1@dont-email.me>, jim beam<me@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>> anyone may as well just
>> buy a vw and get the same handling but with more guts and the same
>> reliability.

>
> technically you're correct, but what you really mean is "lack of
> reliability"


indeed.

though i have to say, despite my own knowledge on their componentry
being inferior to old school honda, the 4-bangers seem to hold up ok. i
have friends with 150k on their gti's with no problems other then
routine maintenance. or so they say.


--
fact check required
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