Honda Car Forum

Here is a brief summary of the problem on my '94 Civic EX coupe (93k miles):

-6 months ago: mechanic mentioned that clutch master cylinder has a leak
-shortly thereafter noticed that the car was harder to shift through the gears
-a couple of days ago: the clutch suddenly started having trouble engaging and
disengaging. e.g. i'd be in 2nd or 3rd and it would be locked there even with
the clutch depressed. after a few seconds i'd eventually be able to shift out
of those gears. Also, after shifting into 1st or 2nd it would sometimes
"klunk" as it engaged. i imagine the same would happen in higher gears but I
never shifted that high.

The clutch doesnt seem to be slipping once the transmission is in gear. Only
when I tried to shift in or out of gears would I have a problem....maybe on
about 25% of the shifts I had to make. I've only driven the car for about 15
minutes since the clutch suddenly got worse so this is what I'm going by.

Since I already knew that the clutch master cylinder was leaking I thought that
that would be the extent of my repairs.

However, I took the car for the first time to this new garage (non-dealer honda
shop) and they, after a short test drive, said I need a new clutch. They were
certain that it was not the clutch master cylinder. They said most of them leak
a bit at that age, but he didnt have a satisfying answer when I said that since
the cylinder only has a little bit of oil in it to begin with, any
leakage--even a small bit--would likely necessitate replacing it. On the
other hand, the clutch fluid in the reservoir has barely dropped at all.

They're convinced that my problem resides with the springs in the clutch disc,
saying how common this is with Civics and Accords, how one of the mechanics in
the shop had to have the same repair done 3 times, yadda yadda yadda.

Is this guy a good mechanic or is he trying to make me overhaul my clutch when
merely replacing the clutch master cylinder will do? I thought my clutch still
had lots of life in it: i dont race, pop the clutch, nor shift crappily....but
i do drive it "enthusiastically". The clutch is still engaging at about the
halfway point of the clutch pedal's travel--nowhere near the top which is what
I expected.

I'm on a very tight student budget and want to sell the car within a few months
so obviously I'm trying to keep my repair costs low.

thanks in advance for any advice

User38221 wrote:
> Here is a brief summary of the problem on my '94 Civic EX coupe (93k miles):
>
> -6 months ago: mechanic mentioned that clutch master cylinder has a leak
> -shortly thereafter noticed that the car was harder to shift through the gears
> -a couple of days ago: the clutch suddenly started having trouble engaging and
> disengaging. e.g. i'd be in 2nd or 3rd and it would be locked there even with
> the clutch depressed. after a few seconds i'd eventually be able to shift out
> of those gears. Also, after shifting into 1st or 2nd it would sometimes
> "klunk" as it engaged. i imagine the same would happen in higher gears but I
> never shifted that high.
>
> The clutch doesnt seem to be slipping once the transmission is in gear. Only
> when I tried to shift in or out of gears would I have a problem....maybe on
> about 25% of the shifts I had to make. I've only driven the car for about 15
> minutes since the clutch suddenly got worse so this is what I'm going by.
>
> Since I already knew that the clutch master cylinder was leaking I thought that
> that would be the extent of my repairs.
>
> However, I took the car for the first time to this new garage (non-dealer honda
> shop) and they, after a short test drive, said I need a new clutch. They were
> certain that it was not the clutch master cylinder. They said most of them leak
> a bit at that age, but he didnt have a satisfying answer when I said that since
> the cylinder only has a little bit of oil in it to begin with, any
> leakage--even a small bit--would likely necessitate replacing it. On the
> other hand, the clutch fluid in the reservoir has barely dropped at all.
>
> They're convinced that my problem resides with the springs in the clutch disc,
> saying how common this is with Civics and Accords, how one of the mechanics in
> the shop had to have the same repair done 3 times, yadda yadda yadda.
>
> Is this guy a good mechanic or is he trying to make me overhaul my clutch when
> merely replacing the clutch master cylinder will do? I thought my clutch still
> had lots of life in it: i dont race, pop the clutch, nor shift crappily....but
> i do drive it "enthusiastically". The clutch is still engaging at about the
> halfway point of the clutch pedal's travel--nowhere near the top which is what
> I expected.
>
> I'm on a very tight student budget and want to sell the car within a few months
> so obviously I'm trying to keep my repair costs low.
>
> thanks in advance for any advice


=============
Get the clutch hydraulics bled, for cheap, and you'll know right away
who'se telling the truth. It's the same as bleeding the brakes, but
takes about ten minutes if you have a helper. DON'T push the pedal too
near the floor.

You didn't mention how often you've been checking and topping up the
fluid... That would have helped a lot.

'Curly'

How does the clutch pedal itself feel?????
If the pedal is soft and engagement at the VERY bottom, near the floor,
then you have air in the lines. Bleed the air out and maintain proper fluid
level. A leaky CMC will still have enough fluid to last 3000 miles between
oil changes.

Yes it is common for the springs to pop out of the clutch disc. More common
on Integras than Hondas.

I'm "D" tranny guru, I specialize in 92-95 Civic trannys, but also play with
88-91 and 96-00 Civic trannys.

http://home.cinci.rr.com/mistab0ne/tranny.html

Email me if you have any questions.

"User38221" <user38221@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040614205343.15909.00000912@mb-m16.aol.com...
> Here is a brief summary of the problem on my '94 Civic EX coupe (93k
miles):
>
> -6 months ago: mechanic mentioned that clutch master cylinder has a leak
> -shortly thereafter noticed that the car was harder to shift through the
gears
> -a couple of days ago: the clutch suddenly started having trouble engaging
and
> disengaging. e.g. i'd be in 2nd or 3rd and it would be locked there even
with
> the clutch depressed. after a few seconds i'd eventually be able to shift
out
> of those gears. Also, after shifting into 1st or 2nd it would sometimes
> "klunk" as it engaged. i imagine the same would happen in higher gears
but I
> never shifted that high.
>
> The clutch doesnt seem to be slipping once the transmission is in gear.
Only
> when I tried to shift in or out of gears would I have a problem....maybe
on
> about 25% of the shifts I had to make. I've only driven the car for about
15
> minutes since the clutch suddenly got worse so this is what I'm going by.
>
> Since I already knew that the clutch master cylinder was leaking I thought
that
> that would be the extent of my repairs.
>
> However, I took the car for the first time to this new garage (non-dealer
honda
> shop) and they, after a short test drive, said I need a new clutch. They
were
> certain that it was not the clutch master cylinder. They said most of them
leak
> a bit at that age, but he didnt have a satisfying answer when I said that
since
> the cylinder only has a little bit of oil in it to begin with, any
> leakage--even a small bit--would likely necessitate replacing it. On the
> other hand, the clutch fluid in the reservoir has barely dropped at all.
>
> They're convinced that my problem resides with the springs in the clutch
disc,
> saying how common this is with Civics and Accords, how one of the
mechanics in
> the shop had to have the same repair done 3 times, yadda yadda yadda.
>
> Is this guy a good mechanic or is he trying to make me overhaul my clutch
when
> merely replacing the clutch master cylinder will do? I thought my clutch
still
> had lots of life in it: i dont race, pop the clutch, nor shift
crappily....but
> i do drive it "enthusiastically". The clutch is still engaging at about
the
> halfway point of the clutch pedal's travel--nowhere near the top which is
what
> I expected.
>
> I'm on a very tight student budget and want to sell the car within a few
months
> so obviously I'm trying to keep my repair costs low.
>
> thanks in advance for any advice
>
>

>Subject: Re: Help! Is the problem the clutch, the clutch master cylinder,
>From: "motsco_ _" "motsco__"@interbaun.com
>Date: 6/14/2004 10:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <40CE68EB.6070901@interbaun.com>
Get the clutch hydraulics bled, for cheap, and you'll know right away
>who'se telling the truth. It's the same as bleeding the brakes, but
>takes about ten minutes if you have a helper. DON'T push the pedal too
>near the floor.
>
>You didn't mention how often you've been checking and topping up the
>fluid... That would have helped a lot.
>
>'Curly'

actually i did state that the fluid reservoir has hardly dropped at all.
specifically, i added just a little bit of fluid to top it up 3 months ago and
the level hasnt dropped any since.

i was wondering why the transmission would go from somewhat sticky shifting
to--all of a sudden-- messed-up shifting where the clutch was no longer
engaging and disengaging properly. are you saying that pre-existing air in the
line caused this situation?

the clutch pedal feels fine. the clutch has been engaging and disengaging in
the middle area of the pedal's travel. the mechanic stated that my clutch
pedal is a bit heavy which would become lighter and quicker after the clutch is
overhauled....or that might be part of his sales pitch.

is there anything else i can do to ascertain the problem or does it look like i
need to drop the tranny?


>From: "Mista Bone" mistab0ne@nospam.net
>Date: 6/15/2004 3:01 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <l1yzc.97474$DG4.71792@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
>
>How does the clutch pedal itself feel?????
> If the pedal is soft and engagement at the VERY bottom, near the floor,
>then you have air in the lines. Bleed the air out and maintain proper fluid
>level. A leaky CMC will still have enough fluid to last 3000 miles between
>oil changes.
>
>Yes it is common for the springs to pop out of the clutch disc. More common
>on Integras than Hondas.

> Get the clutch hydraulics bled, for cheap, and you'll know right away
> who'se telling the truth. It's the same as bleeding the brakes, but
> takes about ten minutes if you have a helper. DON'T push the pedal too
> near the floor.

get a "mityvac" brake bleeder kit, and you can DIY, with no pedal pumping.

Some facts:

It (master cylinder) does not have to leak to be bad. In fact, most
don't. Can be bypassing oil by the piston seals. So resevoir level
changes are not necessarily conclusive.

It could also be your slave cylinder. Same as above. Master cylinder
up top. Slave cylinder mounted right by the clutch/flywheel housing.

You can see the clutch lever being accuated by the slave cylinder.
Have some one push the clutch and watch the lever. If it is not
moving, your problem is the master or slave or both. Change them
both, problem solved. I changed them myself. Helps to have little
hands to get to everything, but I don't, so helps to cuss
periodically.

If it is moving the lever, the problem is internal to the clutch.

this is for a 90 but I don't think honda has changed the basic master/
slave hydraulic system.

On 15 Jun 2004 00:53:43 GMT, user38221@aol.com (User38221) wrote:

>Here is a brief summary of the problem on my '94 Civic EX coupe (93k miles):
>
>-6 months ago: mechanic mentioned that clutch master cylinder has a leak
>-shortly thereafter noticed that the car was harder to shift through the gears
>-a couple of days ago: the clutch suddenly started having trouble engaging and
>disengaging. e.g. i'd be in 2nd or 3rd and it would be locked there even with
>the clutch depressed. after a few seconds i'd eventually be able to shift out
>of those gears. Also, after shifting into 1st or 2nd it would sometimes
>"klunk" as it engaged. i imagine the same would happen in higher gears but I
>never shifted that high.
>
>The clutch doesnt seem to be slipping once the transmission is in gear. Only
>when I tried to shift in or out of gears would I have a problem....maybe on
>about 25% of the shifts I had to make. I've only driven the car for about 15
>minutes since the clutch suddenly got worse so this is what I'm going by.
>
>Since I already knew that the clutch master cylinder was leaking I thought that
>that would be the extent of my repairs.
>
>However, I took the car for the first time to this new garage (non-dealer honda
>shop) and they, after a short test drive, said I need a new clutch. They were
>certain that it was not the clutch master cylinder. They said most of them leak
>a bit at that age, but he didnt have a satisfying answer when I said that since
>the cylinder only has a little bit of oil in it to begin with, any
>leakage--even a small bit--would likely necessitate replacing it. On the
>other hand, the clutch fluid in the reservoir has barely dropped at all.
>
>They're convinced that my problem resides with the springs in the clutch disc,
>saying how common this is with Civics and Accords, how one of the mechanics in
>the shop had to have the same repair done 3 times, yadda yadda yadda.
>
>Is this guy a good mechanic or is he trying to make me overhaul my clutch when
>merely replacing the clutch master cylinder will do? I thought my clutch still
>had lots of life in it: i dont race, pop the clutch, nor shift crappily....but
>i do drive it "enthusiastically". The clutch is still engaging at about the
>halfway point of the clutch pedal's travel--nowhere near the top which is what
>I expected.
>
>I'm on a very tight student budget and want to sell the car within a few months
>so obviously I'm trying to keep my repair costs low.
>
>thanks in advance for any advice
>

user38221@aol.com (User38221) wrote in message news:<20040615054618.05916.00000003@mb-m05.aol.com>...
> the clutch pedal feels fine. the clutch has been engaging and disengaging in
> the middle area of the pedal's travel. the mechanic stated that my clutch
> pedal is a bit heavy which would become lighter and quicker after the clutch is
> overhauled....or that might be part of his sales pitch.
>
> is there anything else i can do to ascertain the problem or does it look like i
> need to drop the tranny?

Well, if there's still fluid in the reservoir, the leak shouldn't be
actually affecting the clutch action. The cylinder refills from the
reservoir and shouldn't get air into the system.
I'm afraid it's likely to be the clutch, in some way. I've not had the
problem you describe, but I've had the throwout bearing go early. I'm
afraid Honda clutch parts aren't any too overdesigned.
Of course, since it's such a major operation, before getting into the
clutch, you ought to make sure it's not anything else. Look at the
linkage between the slave cylinder and the clutch and make sure it's
not screwed up in some way. If you're going to replace the master
cylinder anyway, might as well do that first on the 1 in a million
chance that that fixes it. It's relatively cheap, by comparison.
>
>
> >From: "Mista Bone" mistab0ne@nospam.net
> >Date: 6/15/2004 3:01 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <l1yzc.97474$DG4.71792@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
> >
> >How does the clutch pedal itself feel?????
> > If the pedal is soft and engagement at the VERY bottom, near the floor,
> >then you have air in the lines. Bleed the air out and maintain proper fluid
> >level. A leaky CMC will still have enough fluid to last 3000 miles between
> >oil changes.
> >
> >Yes it is common for the springs to pop out of the clutch disc. More common
> >on Integras than Hondas.

sounds like a clutch is in order.


"User38221" <user38221@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040615054618.05916.00000003@mb-m05.aol.com...
> the clutch pedal feels fine. the clutch has been engaging and disengaging
in
> the middle area of the pedal's travel. the mechanic stated that my clutch
> pedal is a bit heavy which would become lighter and quicker after the
clutch is
> overhauled....or that might be part of his sales pitch.
>
> is there anything else i can do to ascertain the problem or does it look
like i
> need to drop the tranny?
>
>
> >From: "Mista Bone" mistab0ne@nospam.net
> >Date: 6/15/2004 3:01 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <l1yzc.97474$DG4.71792@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
> >
> >How does the clutch pedal itself feel?????
> > If the pedal is soft and engagement at the VERY bottom, near the floor,
> >then you have air in the lines. Bleed the air out and maintain proper
fluid
> >level. A leaky CMC will still have enough fluid to last 3000 miles
between
> >oil changes.
> >
> >Yes it is common for the springs to pop out of the clutch disc. More
common
> >on Integras than Hondas.
>
>

For those following my little Civic saga:

the problem turned out to be a spring popping out of the clutch disc. Another
spring was about to go and the release bearing was noisy so it was about due
for a clutch replacement anyway. i'm a bit envious of those who got a few more
years and few more 10k miles out of their original clutch.

the clutch master cylinder is working fine even though it's leaking a bit
around the seal.

it's shifting like butter now...hallelujah brother!