Honda Car Forum

"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake
> > If you're not so concerned, and have no symptoms of a malfunctioning
> > PCV valve (e.g. reduced fuel mileage; oil seals leaking oil),
>
> Those are not symptoms of a plugged PCV valve. Stop misleading people.

The latest (of many) citations on this:

Autozone: *** REPLACING YOUR "PCV VALVE" CAN IMPROVE YOUR ENGINE IDLE AND FUEL
ECONOMY.*** http://tinyurl.com/yqbra

"P.C.V. malfunctions lower fuel economy since it is a vacuum device."
http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/auto/n/n.htm

Citations from our past discussion:

http://www.inct.net/~autotips/mpg.htm

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf

http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...7&article=4681

http://www.interro.com/techgas.html

http://www.womanmotorist.com/index.p...522/event=view

http://www.is-it-a-lemon.com/fuel/pcv_valve.htm

http://www.courier-tribune.com/guide/gasmileage.html

Googling will turn up more. Try {"PCV valve" "fuel economy"}

On plugged PCV valves causing oil leaks:
"A restricted PCV valve can cause this excess pressure to find new avenues to
vent, and an oil gasket or seal is usually "blown out" to let this pressure
escape." http://www.trustmymechanic.com/valve_cover_leak.htm

"Engine is using more oil than normal. Oil puddles under the car when parked...
The PCV system is not working properly: Replace PCV valve."
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...a/bl303a_3.htm


These are merely the very first two hits of a Google search for {"PCV Valve"
"oil leak"}.

The my personal experience: Replacing my 91 Civic's PCV valve late last winter
increased fuel economy over 10%. I was getting below 40 mpg, probably around 35
mpg. Spring-Fall, 2003, I got over 40 mpg consistently. This dipped under 40 mpg
during the winter, but then around March I checked my PCV valve and it was again
somewhat fouled.

Last three tanks of gas: 42, 43, and 41 mpg.

The reader can make his/her own decision on this.

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake unto the masses in
news:7y%wc.24848$Tn6.14284@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net:

> "Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
>> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake
>> > If you're not so concerned, and have no symptoms of a
>> > malfunctioning PCV valve (e.g. reduced fuel mileage; oil seals
>> > leaking oil),
>>
>> Those are not symptoms of a plugged PCV valve. Stop misleading
>> people.
>
> The latest (of many) citations on this:


<snip>


> Googling will turn up more. Try {"PCV valve" "fuel economy"}



So if the same nonsense gets repeated often enough, it becomes true?

This is what is known as "Internet wisdom". Do a Google for some famous
quotes that come to mind and see how many pages attribute the quote to the
wrong person, or get the quote wrong entirely.

This PCV thing is one of those nonsense "facts".

A plugged PCV valve does not affect gas mileage. End of story.



>
> On plugged PCV valves causing oil leaks:
> "A restricted PCV valve can cause this excess pressure to find new
> avenues to vent, and an oil gasket or seal is usually "blown out" to
> let this pressure escape."
> http://www.trustmymechanic.com/valve_cover_leak.htm



It is necessary that BOTH the crankcase breather AND the PCV valve get
plugged.

And even then it would pump itself out the path of least resistance first,
usually the oil dipstick tube or something like a failing oil pan gasket.


>
> The my personal experience: Replacing my 91 Civic's PCV valve late
> last winter increased fuel economy over 10%. I was getting below 40
> mpg, probably around 35 mpg. Spring-Fall, 2003, I got over 40 mpg
> consistently. This dipped under 40 mpg during the winter, but then
> around March I checked my PCV valve and it was again somewhat fouled.
>
> Last three tanks of gas: 42, 43, and 41 mpg.



I am convinced your numbers are in error. You have stated previously that
you never drive more than 5 or 10 minutes at a time, in suburban driving.

Your car is running COLD, and slowly, for most its running time. By the
time it goes to closed-loop, you have shut it off.

The EPA, normally quite optimistc when it comes to gas mileage figures,
lists 37mpg for your car at highway speed, much less than that for city
driving.

Sorry, but your claim of 40mpg is just not at all credible.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda FAQ
http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/faq.html

How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
www.google.com
www.groups.google.com

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake unto the masses in
news:Ed%wc.24839$Tn6.864@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net:

> "y_p_w" <y_p_w@hotmail.com> wrote
> Caroline wrote
>> > If you're very concerned, just buy a new valve. They're not very
>> > expensive.
>>
>> OEM at the dealer is going to be way more.
>
> Sure. But $20 still isn't a lot every 60k miles or so.



And if you take care of your car and change the oil properly, the valve
will last the life of the car without cleaning.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda FAQ
http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/faq.html

How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
www.google.com
www.groups.google.com

alan <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ca0vto$9cl$1@news.Stanford.EDU>...
> y_p_w wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Caroline wrote:
> >
> >> "alan" <no-longer-valid@yahoo.com> wrote
> >>
> >>> Caroline wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Did you do the little PCV valve test where, with the valve properly
> >>
> >>
> >> installed,
> >>
> >>>> you pinch the PCV hose and listen for a click?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No. It's tucked under the intake manifold, so I can't reach it unless I
> >>> start taking off hoses.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Might not be good for all cars. Post your year and model, and I
> >>>> might be
> >>
> >>
> >> able to
> >>
> >>>> tell you.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 97 Integra GSR
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I haven't seen any easy-to-retrieve online manuals for this. (A couple
> >> of online
> >> manual resources exist for pre-1996 or so Honda models.)
> >>
> >> The following has drawings and a description of this little test for
> >> 1995-1997
> >> Civics, for what it's worth.
> >>
> >> http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/CivicManual/pdf/11-109.pdf
> >
> >
> > From my "Integra Service Manual 1995":
> >
> > "2. At idle, make sure there is a clicking sound from the PCV valve,
> > when the hose between PCV valve and intake manifold in [sic] lightly
> > pinched with your fingers or pliers."
> >
> > I'll just say that the PCV valve of my '95 GS-R is a PITA to reach
> > without taking out stuff. I can't even fit a pair of pliers in
> > there to do the test. My '89 Integra had an easy to reach PCV valve
> > location. BTW - anyone knows what needs to be taken out?
>
> I unplugged the hose that connects the valve cover to the intake before
> the throttle body, and the coolant line that runs to the throttle body.
> Then, you can barely fit your hand in there to pull the PCV valve out
> from the engine. Then you can barely fit some pliers in there to remove
> the hose clamp that holds the PCV valve on.

Well - I may just end up doing that. It sounds like you're talking about
the breather tube and the coolant line running to the idle control valve.
It shouldn't leak too much coolant, especially since it's higher than
the top of the radiator.

I also need to clean off the area around the PCV valve. It's collected
a lot of grime in 132K miles. It's also losing a lot more oil than it
used to, and I'm thinking it might have something to do with the
original PCV valve.

> >> If you're very concerned, just buy a new valve. They're not very
> >> expensive.
> >
> >
> > OEM at the dealer is going to be way more. However - it's not something
> > that's replaced all that ofter.
>
> yeah, it's like $20 around here

I remember something like $13 a few years back for a PCV valve for my
'89 Integra. I didn't really need a new one, since the old one passed
the pinch and click test, as well as the shake the thing around test.

Tegger wrote:
snip non-rebuttal
> It is necessary that BOTH the crankcase breather AND the PCV valve get
> plugged.

We've been over this. If the PCV valve plugs, that's one less path for the
crankcase gases to escape. Steady state crankcase pressure thus will be higher
with a plugged PCV valve. This places more pressure on various oil seals. Thus
they may fail sooner.

> And even then it would pump itself out the path of least resistance first,
> usually the oil dipstick tube or something like a failing oil pan gasket.

An oil pan gasket is one of the seals that can fail, correct.

snip
Caroline wrote:
> > Last three tanks of gas: 42, 43, and 41 mpg.
>
> I am convinced your numbers are in error. You have stated previously that
> you never drive more than 5 or 10 minutes at a time, in suburban driving.

No, Tegger. You should have googled. I wrote on May 3:

"I for one do very little highway driving apart from vacations. My trips have
always tended more towards 10-20 minute runs to work or the grocery, etc."

Right now I typically drive 20 minutes to the grocery or hardware store, each
way.

> Your car is running COLD, and slowly, for most its running time. By the
> time it goes to closed-loop, you have shut it off.

I live in a climate that is pretty warm 3/4 of the year. The car is warmed up in
five minutes during these nine, warm weather months.

> The EPA, normally quite optimistc when it comes to gas mileage figures,

I don't know that the EPA is normally optimistic or not. I have seen other
non-Honda reports of people getting mileage better than the government site.

> lists 37mpg for your car at highway speed, much less than that for city
> driving.

Wrong again, Tegger. The site says my car is supposed to get 35 mpg at highway
speeds.

> Sorry, but your claim of 40mpg is just not at all credible.

For the rational among us, further proof that 40 mpg or more on a circa 1991
Civic is not unusual:

Sean Dinh, 1998/09/05:
"Same maintenance schedule as 91 Civic. It's handling doesn't even come close to
the 91 Civic sedan. Get 40+ mpg on highway. 50+ if I drive at legal
speed(Warning: Dangerous to your health). 40's
around town."

Stew King, 1997/03/19:
"... my '92 Civic 4dr 5sp regular gets better than 40 mpg (17km/l?) highway. I
don't do very much city driving so i can't help you there."

(dcorneldcornel@cinternet.net), 1998/01/09:
"91 civic HB DX 5-speed (No AC)
Best: 44 mpg HWY (5-10mph over legal typically)
Ave: 39 mpg hwy 35 city"

Priyantha Mathupala, 2001-02-15:
"I got my 91' Civic timing belt and water pump replaced @ 100,000 miles. The car
was doing 40 mpg and running very smoothly up to that point."

Mathu, 2004-05-21:
"I know exactly what you mean by this "ticking" sound. I have a
91 Civic, and I have been living with this ticking/clicking sound for
almost 5 years. But the car runs fine, gives about 40-41 mpg."

Natural Born Cynic, 1999/09/12:
"I had a Honda Civic Dx that would regularly get 40-44 mpg on long trips, this
was with a lead foot. However, one time on a long trip I stayed at 55 mph, and
slowed down up
hills by not increasing pressure on the gas pedal, and got 55 miles /gallon."

Richard J. Dudley, 1996/05/09:
"I get approx. 40 mpg with 87 octane Chevron in my 91 Civic DC 5-speed on the
highway, and about 33-35 in the city."

Scott Ramoly, 2000-09-15:
"I don't know the differences between your 89 Civic and my 88 Civic DX (manual);
but with 225,000 miles I am still getting about 35 MPG. Used to get as high as
42 MPG on the road."

Timothy Lee, 1998/01/20:
"But old Civic wagons got up to 40 mpg (though the 4wd version was probably
somewhat lower)."

Zero, 2000/04/29:
"I had a 91' DX 5-speed. I got 30-35 driving hard (the car was slow as hell so
I made up for it by accelerating AFAP all the time). I'd get 35-40 on the
highway. My mom had a 89 civic waqon 5-speed (same drivtrain) and she got 40-45
when it was new. It has 300,000 on it and still gets over 35."

All quotations above are in the Usenet archive. Specifically, see
http://tinyurl.com/25dqt , the results of an advanced www.groups.google.com
search using
{ 91 Civic (40 OR 41 OR 42 OR 43 OR 44) mpg group:alt.autos.honda, OR
group:rec.autos.makers.honda }.

Many others on Usenet have attested to 40+ mpg on their 91 Civics, but I have
omitted those who are trying to sell their car.

Until the inside breaks out, and the car starts using oil like crazy.
(86-89 accord.) The valve has even been superseded now because it was such
a problem.

"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns95018CDB2A6F8teggeratistop@207.14.113.17.. .
>
> And if you take care of your car and change the oil properly, the valve
> will last the life of the car without cleaning.
>

"Jafir Elkurd" <jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> spake unto the masses
in news:10c9ppaspfgoac5@corp.supernews.com:

> Until the inside breaks out,


What? The spring and plunger BREAKING? Proof please. And not Google results
either.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda FAQ
http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/faq.html

How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
www.google.com
www.groups.google.com

"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote in message news:<Xns95018CAA13DD2teggeratistop@207.14.113.17> ...
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake unto the masses in
> news:7y%wc.24848$Tn6.14284@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net:
>
> > "Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote
> >> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> spake
> >> > If you're not so concerned, and have no symptoms of a
> >> > malfunctioning PCV valve (e.g. reduced fuel mileage; oil seals
> >> > leaking oil),
> >>
> >> Those are not symptoms of a plugged PCV valve. Stop misleading
> >> people.
> >
> > The latest (of many) citations on this:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
> > Googling will turn up more. Try {"PCV valve" "fuel economy"}
>
>
>
> So if the same nonsense gets repeated often enough, it becomes true?
>
> This is what is known as "Internet wisdom". Do a Google for some famous
> quotes that come to mind and see how many pages attribute the quote to the
> wrong person, or get the quote wrong entirely.
>
> This PCV thing is one of those nonsense "facts".
>
> A plugged PCV valve does not affect gas mileage. End of story.

Dude - I read it and saw who the source was:

"A malfunctioning P.C.V. may result in a hard starting engine, surge
at cruise, and hesitation on acceleration. P.C.V. malfunctions lower
fuel economy since it is a vacuum device."

and the source (at least the guy who cross-checked the info).....

CURRICULUM WRITER & PROGRAM CONSULTANT
Joseph H. Pons, III.
Associate Professor
Industrial Technology
University of Southwestern Louisiana

He seems to have either retired or moved on from Southeastern Louisiana
University. I did find his CV in a cached archive:

"Joe Pons has 23 years university teaching. Prior to joining the
ITEC faculty, he worked for Ford Motor Co. as a zone technical
manager and district parts and service management consultant. He
has also taught two years at a secondary school and one year at a
post-secondary technical institute. Technical interests lie in
mechanical and fluid power technologies, and he serves as the
coordinator for these courses. Upper level courses include these
aspects of automation and robotics.

He earned a BS degree in Industrial Arts Education from louisiana
and a MS from LSU in Adult Vocational and Technical Education with
a minor in Management. While at Ford, prior to receiving his MS, he
acquired extensive management training."

I'm unsure of how to PROVE it to you. I've seen it. That was good enough
to prove it to me. A bad PCV valve causing rough running and high oil
consumption was quite common on 86-89 accords. Not so common anymore
because many of them have had the PCV valve replaced.

"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9501C68329F29teggeratistop@207.14.113.17.. .
> "Jafir Elkurd" <jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> spake unto the masses
> in news:10c9ppaspfgoac5@corp.supernews.com:
>
> > Until the inside breaks out,
>
>
> What? The spring and plunger BREAKING? Proof please. And not Google
results
> either.
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda FAQ
> http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/faq.html
>
> How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
> www.google.com
> www.groups.google.com

http://autotech-elearning.com/uploads/314-tib_003.pdf

"Jafir Elkurd" <jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:10cabv6bqe5qma5@corp.supernews.com...
> I'm unsure of how to PROVE it to you. I've seen it. That was good enough
> to prove it to me. A bad PCV valve causing rough running and high oil
> consumption was quite common on 86-89 accords. Not so common anymore
> because many of them have had the PCV valve replaced.
>
> "Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote in message
> news:Xns9501C68329F29teggeratistop@207.14.113.17.. .
> > "Jafir Elkurd" <jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> spake unto the masses
> > in news:10c9ppaspfgoac5@corp.supernews.com:
> >
> > > Until the inside breaks out,
> >
> >
> > What? The spring and plunger BREAKING? Proof please. And not Google
> results
> > either.
> >
> >
> > --
> > TeGGeR®
> >
> > The Unofficial Honda FAQ
> > http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/faq.html
> >
> > How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
> > www.google.com
> > www.groups.google.com
>
>