Honda Car Forum

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> >
> > I'm tempted to buy a second, used crankshaft pulley and then try a
> > modified version of your tool. If I bust the old pulley completely, I'll
> > get the correct pulley holder tool and somehow figure out how to get the
> > torque needed with it. Then chalk this all up to "education."
>
> The pulley holding tool at the etoolcart site looks very much like the one
> that's illustrated in the manual. However, the honda manual also specifies
> that there's a special socket that's to be used with this tool,
> http://tinyurl.com/3bbuk. I didn't see this socket available at the
> etoolcart site. It might be worth your while to call them and inquire about
> the socket. It could be that they intend for you to use your own socket.
> For that to work, you'll need to know the inside diameter of their tool and
> find a socket that will work.

I looked at the drawing at the UK site more closely and see what you mean. I
also read George's and your subsequent posts. If I still needed the retail tool,
I'd likely inquire about the diameter of the socket hole's dimensions.

Onto the better news. :-)

Yesterday I had an idea for modifying Eric's version of the tool so that the
tool's steel bar does not touch the power steering pulley lip. It consists of
Eric's design plus four lock rings and some rubber hose on each bolt. The lock
rings and hose act as spacers and a protector so the bolts don't impose a force
on the power steering pulley's lip. From right to left as one is standing at the
front of the car, looking down, it's: 7/16" (pulley holding tool) bolt head, 4
lock rings, rubber hose over 7/16" bolt, crankshaft pulley, 7/16" nut.

I didn't let the 2 foot steel bar push against the suspension or car's frame.
Instead, I let the non-pulley end push against a pile of four 1/2" plywood
boards on the ground.

With a 5 foot extension pipe over the 1.5 foot long breaker bar, I proceeded
slowly, intermittently checking to see that the bolts weren't pressing against
the lip of the power steering pulley. They did not. After applying I estimate
about half my weight, the pulley bolt broke free easily. I heard that huge, loud
metallic crack that everyone describes. Some dust rose. I checked for damage;
none was evident. I pushed with the 18" breaker bar alone, and sure enough the
bolt was free.

I estimate it took around 300 ft-lbs. of torque to break the bolt free. I did
apply a little PB Blaster penetrating oil to the pulley bolt two days ago. The
last time the bolt was removed was three years ago. It looks in good shape.

JB Weld seems to be holding the chunk that chipped off the other day together
fine. I did find a salvage yard that is pretty sure they have a 91 Civic
crankshaft pulley for $35. I am still thinking of replacing the pulley and still
have some concerns about the harmonic balancer.

Had an amusing word from a dealer yesterday morning. I called Dealer Parts to
see if by chance they had the retail pulley holding tool. They said no and then
added that my troubles might be that the bolt is a left-hand thread. Ha. I said
nothing, in the name of good relations, or because dealers are what they are.

For the archives again: Early 1990s Honda Civic (or all Honda?) crankshaft
pulley bolts are right-hand threaded = right tight and left loose).

Total cost of my 1991 Civic LX 1.5 liter crankshaft pulley holding tool was
under $10 as follows:
One 3/8" thick, 2' flat steel bar (a surveying stake, technically), Lowe's =
$3.27
Two 7/16" diameter, 3" long, Gr. 8 fine thread bolts, True Value Hardware =
$3.50 (or thereabouts)
Two 7/16" diameter, Gr. 8 fine thread nuts, True Value Hardware = $1.50 (or
thereabouts)
Eight 7/16" diameter Gr. 8 lock washers, True Value Hardware = $1.04
Three inches of 1/2 " ID, 3/4" OD 200 PSI Goodyear hose, Lowe's = $0.50 (or
thereabouts)

As Eric has described, drill the 7/16" diameter holes in the steel bar at one
end, 3 inches apart. Snug up the nuts on the bolts as much as possible. There
was still a little play when I started torquing but to no adverse effect, and
the play will help assemble everything.

I strongly recommend using two high quality 1/2 inch diameter, 10-inch long
extension drives and a breaker bar at least 1.5 foot long, supported by a jack,
as shown in part in the 4th photo from the top at site
http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html . Have strong, long pipe
you can put over the breaker bar to give yourself a longer torque arm without
risking life and limb.

Of course I had to buy various new tools for this project, like a 7/16"
titanium-coated drill bit ($6 at Autozone) and a 17 mm 1/2 inch drive deep
socket ($3.50 at Pep Boys) and the usual minor wastage purchases of bolts, nuts,
tools that don't work (few bucks) while I figured out how to make this all work.
(BTW, I ran some numbers for the stress on a 3/8" drive setup. Don't do it.
Breaking something is highly likely.)

I am delighted with this success. Thanks especially to Eric, George, Curly, E.
Meyer, Lex, Tom, Tegger and others who offered their experience on this matter
over the last few months. Also, thanks to Gene Blanchard for his web site (link
above).

Onto the seals and various and sundry maintenance around the cam and
crankshafts.

Caroline wrote:
[snip]
>
> Onto the seals and various and sundry maintenance around the cam and
> crankshafts.

Great news, By the way, the seals can be annoying to replace especially when
the factory seal drivers are not at hand. I've found that I can use some
large "machine washers" as seal drivers to tap the seal into the bore. The
washers go between the seal and my punch and protect the seal from being
damaged. The other trick is to cut a piece of plastic from the side of a
pop bottle to make a sleeve about 3" x 4". The sleeve is wrapped around the
seal journal on the crank and then seal is pushed over the sleeve into its
bore. You can remove the sleeve once you get the seal roughly half way into
the bore. Using the sleeve is important since it prevents the inner lip of
the seal from hanging up and getting folded over which can ruin the seal. A
light coat of grease goes on the inner lip of the seal and a thin coat of
ultra gray silicone goes on the outer lip. Good luck.

Eric

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> > Onto the seals and various and sundry maintenance around the cam and
> > crankshafts.
>
> Great news, By the way, the seals can be annoying to replace especially when
> the factory seal drivers are not at hand. I've found that I can use some
> large "machine washers" as seal drivers to tap the seal into the bore. The
> washers go between the seal and my punch and protect the seal from being
> damaged. The other trick is to cut a piece of plastic from the side of a
> pop bottle to make a sleeve about 3" x 4". The sleeve is wrapped around the
> seal journal on the crank and then seal is pushed over the sleeve into its
> bore. You can remove the sleeve once you get the seal roughly half way into
> the bore. Using the sleeve is important since it prevents the inner lip of
> the seal from hanging up and getting folded over which can ruin the seal. A
> light coat of grease goes on the inner lip of the seal and a thin coat of
> ultra gray silicone goes on the outer lip. Good luck.

Thanks, Eric. I have been seeing some cautions about this; the tools that are
sold for this; and the plastic pop bottle sleeve (maybe posted before by you)
and washer remedies. All are going into my notes.

Natually I don't have a good picture of the "guts" of the job yet, not having
laid hands on them yet but instead working from a lot of online drawings and
Chilton drawings. For example, with the help of Majestic Honda, I think I just
figured out this morning that the front crank seal is also known as the oil pump
front seal. (The crankshaft and oil pump shaft are actually one in the same? I
know, doh... ) Item 22 at http://tinyurl.com/3cuzs ? That right? (I found the
camshaft seal.)

Pretty sure I will replace the tensioner too, as Googling turns up the
suggestion to do it about every other timing belt change. Other folks do say "if
it ain't broke, don't fix it," but I lean towards conservatism on this item,
overall from my reading. Also, one shop in town I respect says they replace it
every other time.

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 01:40:12 -0700, Eric <say.no@spam.now> wrote:

>George Macdonald wrote:
>> It's my impression that's just the socket to use with the holding tool
>
>Correct...
>
>> and which gives a little extra depth to get at the bolt head.
>
>Not entirely. The socket fits through the center part of the holding tool
>and functions as a fulcrum allowing the tool to lock the pulley in place.
>In essence, the socket is performing two jobs, i.e., it forms a second pin
>in the tool similar to the outer bolt that I used in the tool that I made
>for my crankshaft pulley (http://tinyurl.com/2x432) and also allows you to
>loosen the pulley bolt. The Honda service manual even states that some
>molybdenum grease should be applied to the socket thereby suggesting that
>the clearance between the holding tool and the socket is important (allowing
>the socket to turn while under the friction from acting as a holding pin).

OK - yes, the Honda tool does appear to have a socket which is a precision
fit in the holding tool which acts as a boss for the socket.

>> I'm sure you can use either just a deep socket or regular
>> socket+extension on a breaker bar - get the impact strength socket and/or
>> extension type if you think it'll be better and flex less under torque.
>> I have the Honda 50mm hex tool and handle and it doesn't require any
>> special socket - it's quite flush with the pulley face.
>
>Correct. However, the two pulley holding tools work in different ways.
>Having the tool flush with the pulley face, although important due to
>clearance limitations, is not relevant since the tool for the early pulleys
>uses pins to lock into the pulley. A deep impact socket may indeed work.
>However, the socket's length and diameter may be important in order for the
>tool to function efficiently.

I haven't seen one of those pulleys in a while so I don't recall how well
it's shaped to accept the end of the SIR special tool - could be nasty if
it slipped out with 300lb/ft applied.:-) It'd be interesting to hear what
SIR has to say on the subject of the external diameter of the socket.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote
> "tflfb" wrote:
> > Do you have the old piece, if so I would get some JB Weld, rotate the pulley
> > to a position where it could be refastened with JB Weld, and let it sit over
> > night.
> >
> > If a little of the cement squishes out to the belt side, it may be possible
> > to remove it with sandpaper after it drys.
>
> Yes, I do have the old piece. I'll read up on JB Weld's strength
characteristics
> and assess the risk if the "weld" does not hold and the little piece goes
flying
> off. (It's about 1.5" of pulley arc length" x 9/16" x 1/8".) Thanks.

The JB Weld held fine for I figure about two weeks. But yesterday I discovered
the chipped off piece had come free. It's now lost forever. Must have
miscalculated for "worst case" scenarios--hitting bumps, etc.

Worse, as George supposed, the power steering belt does look a bit frayed on the
edge closest to the chipped section.

My first local salvage yard didn't have the right pulley, after all. The second
local salvage yard wanted almost the same as Majestic online (about $100) for a
used pulley. This despite my "fierce negotiations." The guy at the yard kept
insisting he could get $100 for it from local shops. I told him I'd keep
thinking about it but walked out happily, feeling pretty confident I could do
better online, one way or another. Meanwhile I drive prepared to lose power
steering...

Ebay occasionally has non-performance (i.e. OEM non aluminum) pulleys for early
1990s Hondas but not right now. I researched on the net and discovered the
online salvage yard business. Pretty cool. Many (most?) have search engines
which all seem to use the same format. Dunno what's with this but the responses
I got varied enough for me to think I was pretty much searching one store's
inventory at a time.

I found one pulley (and I mean exactly one!) that should work on my car.
Interchangeability is very limited, with IIRC variation in pulley wheel
diameters for the alternator and PS belts (didn't check power steering). Plus,
not all of them had the correct circumferential holes for which my home-made
pulley holder tool is designed, so, you know... ;-)

By the looks of things at the Majestic site, only 1989-91 Civic LX (and only
LX!) pulleys are identical.

I'm paying $50 total (= part cost + shipping/handling) to Olstons.com for a 1990
LX pulley, with the clerk there double checking two diameters for me, shipped
UPS. Hopefully it's a fit.

Meanwhile I'm finding other uses for JB Weld around the house. :-)

> Worse, as George supposed, the power steering belt does look a bit frayed on the
> edge closest to the chipped section.

im wondering whether the sharp edge where the pulley broke can be filed
or ground down to make it "softer" as a stopgap measure.

"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote
C wrote
> > Worse, as George supposed, the power steering belt does look a bit frayed on
the
> > edge closest to the chipped section.
>
> im wondering whether the sharp edge where the pulley broke can be filed
> or ground down to make it "softer" as a stopgap measure.

Yes, I am thinking about doing this, as I monitor the PS belt's fraying. ;-)
Only a few inches of one edge seem to be staying frayed, with no worsening.
Maybe the fraying occurred when the JB weld gave up and the chip flew off.

Maybe I'll lay a little JB weld on there to smooth out the rough edges, too.

Anyway, I'm not sweating it. My "new" pulley should be here within a week, and I
don't need the car for anything but recreation lately.