Honda Car Forum

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 00:45:22 GMT, "Caroline"
<caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>Caroline wrote
>snip
>> >Thanks, Kevin, George, and Eric. I'll keep a close eye on the power steering
>> >belt. I'll also consider the interchangeability (esp. diameters) of the
>current
>> >pulley with other Honda models' 50 mm (or so?) hex socket version. After a
>lot
>> >of reading on this over the last few months, I know what you're talking
>about.
>> >I'm seeing tools for my pulley for some $70 or so, while the other pulley
>holder
>> >tool can be had for under $30.
>>
>> It's 50mm according to service manuals. I hadn't seen any tools for the
>> pulleys without the hex socket in it - that'd be interesting to have as a
>> reference here.
>
>http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...lder---SIRHO60
>.HTML
>
>Also, from the popular UK Honda manual site:
>
>http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/Concert...sk301/5-26.pdf
>
>and how it's used, more or less (lower right corner of page):
>
>http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/Concert...sk301/5-27.pdf

Now that *is* interesting - never seen such a tool in a U.S. Honda manual
but of course, I've umm, missed a few... anybody else seen this bugger
mentioned?

>My 91 Civic crankshaft pulley has quite the lip on it where the power steering
>belt goes. The lip is bowl-shaped, too, meaning bolting a flat bar (part of my
>proposed crankshaft pulley holding tool) to the pulley puts stress on the lip,
>if you can picture this.
>
>I JB Welded the 0.3 oz. chunk of pulley that came off yesterday. My calculations
>say it should hold easily, if JB Weld does not lie about the strength of its
>stuff. OTOH, I'm quite confident of the high probability it will chip off again
>(or another piece will chip off) when I bolt the tool I'm making (Eric's design,
>more or less) to it and apply, yup, over 200 ft-lbs so far to the pulley bolt by
>my rough calculations. I bear in mind I might need lots more.
>
>I've been resisting the air impact wrench because clearly I'm going to need a
>serious one, so it will be a rental to save bucks. Also, I confess after bending
>one grade 8 bolt yesterday in this effort, and thinking about the force this is
>going to take, I am starting to think Curly's (tongue-in-cheek?) caution about
>handling such a heavy duty air impact wrench should be taken seriously. I don't
>know. A guy can't be that much stronger than me. But we've been over this, ad
>nauseam...

In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
valve gear flapping around.

>I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft pulleys
>with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I suspect the
>pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray into car repairs. :-)
>(No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have pretty surely a leaking
>crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried about the timing belt getting
>oily than anything else.) My pulley's overall diameter is about 5.5 inches; the
>power steering belt wheel diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone
>having a crankshaft pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do
>post the dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
>dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)

Sorry I don't know but what I do know is that there were some model years
which had the hex socket in the pulley and the info on when it appeared is
vague/imprecise and sometimes wrong. If you look at the Schley tool models
and years shown here:
http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=629 it says
that the 1.8L Integra engine didn't have the hex fitting till '94 and yet,
to my great relief, my '92 had it. If someone knows the relative sizes of
'91 vs. '92 Civic pulleys, that might give a starting point for a junkyard
search.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Caroline wrote:
> My 91 Civic crankshaft pulley has quite the lip on it where the power
> steering belt goes. The lip is bowl-shaped, too, meaning bolting a flat
> bar (part of my proposed crankshaft pulley holding tool) to the pulley
> puts stress on the lip, if you can picture this.
>
> I JB Welded the 0.3 oz. chunk of pulley that came off yesterday. My
> calculations say it should hold easily, if JB Weld does not lie about the
> strength of its stuff. OTOH, I'm quite confident of the high probability
> it will chip off again (or another piece will chip off) when I bolt the
> tool I'm making (Eric's design, more or less) to it and apply, yup, over
> 200 ft-lbs so far to the pulley bolt by my rough calculations. I bear in
> mind I might need lots more.
>
> I've been resisting the air impact wrench because clearly I'm going to
> need a serious one, so it will be a rental to save bucks. Also, I confess
> after bending one grade 8 bolt yesterday in this effort, and thinking
> about the force this is going to take, I am starting to think Curly's
> (tongue-in-cheek?) caution about handling such a heavy duty air impact
> wrench should be taken seriously. I don't know. A guy can't be that much
> stronger than me. But we've been over this, ad nauseam...
>
> I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft
> pulleys with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I
> suspect the pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray
> into car repairs. :-) (No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have
> pretty surely a leaking crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried
> about the timing belt getting oily than anything else.) My pulley's
> overall diameter is about 5.5 inches; the power steering belt wheel
> diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone having a crankshaft
> pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do post the
> dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
> dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)

OK, it seems that you have a different crank pulley than the one that I have
on my '88 Civic. Mine does not have the extra lip for the power steering
belt. It only has capacity for the alternator and AC belts. Both of these
belt wheels (or whatever you wish to call them) are about the same
diameter. The AC belt wheel has a nice flat lip on it. The tool I made for
my car didn't damage the pulley in any appreciable way.

If it were my unit, I would buy the appropriate holding tool from the
etoolcart website and replace the damaged pulley with one of the correct
design for your car from a wrecking yard. I don't know for certain, but it
could be that the nose of the crankshaft is different on cars that used the
later pulley design with the 50mm hex. I do know that on a '90 Accord
(which uses the later pulley design) the keyway for the woodruf key is quite
different than it is on my Civic. This difference would likely make using a
later pulley impossible.

Eric

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
Caroline wrote
> >> It's 50mm according to service manuals. I hadn't seen any tools for the
> >> pulleys without the hex socket in it - that'd be interesting to have as a
> >> reference here.
> >
>
>http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...older---SIRHO6
0
> >.HTML
> >
> >Also, from the popular UK Honda manual site:
> >
> >http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/Concert...sk301/5-26.pdf
> >
> >and how it's used, more or less (lower right corner of page):
> >
> >http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/Concert...sk301/5-27.pdf
>
> Now that *is* interesting - never seen such a tool in a U.S. Honda manual
> but of course, I've umm, missed a few... anybody else seen this bugger
> mentioned?

I should have noted that I am not 100% sure these are the right tools for my
1991 Civic. The Concerto engine seems to be the same as the 91 Civic's. The
tools shown at each of the two sites look like they work the same way. I know
for sure I don't have any 50 mm hex setup, as I've seen in drawings of other
crankshaft pulleys. I know a special tool is appropriate and have seen no other
than those shown at the links above.

Chilton's doesn't mention this tool, either.

I should have also added that, as I look at this tool, I don't know that I could
get the necessary torque even with it. It really doesn't give me much more hope
than the tool I'm in the process of fabricating now.

Another nudge in the direction of researching interchangeability of crank
pulleys.

snip
> >I've been resisting the air impact wrench because clearly I'm going to need a
> >serious one, so it will be a rental to save bucks.
snip
> In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
> specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
> always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
> valve gear flapping around.

I remember this coming up before. IIRC I have seen this warning at a few sites
(not searching for it; just happened on it). But so many people seemed to
ignore it, or IIRC we made some distinction between an impact hammer and an air
wrench, that I figured... But perhaps I figure wrong.

One more reason to hold back on an impact wrench.

> >I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft
pulleys
> >with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I suspect the
> >pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray into car repairs.
:-)
> >(No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have pretty surely a leaking
> >crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried about the timing belt
getting
> >oily than anything else.) My pulley's overall diameter is about 5.5 inches;
the
> >power steering belt wheel diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone
> >having a crankshaft pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do
> >post the dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
> >dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)
>
> Sorry I don't know but what I do know is that there were some model years
> which had the hex socket in the pulley and the info on when it appeared is
> vague/imprecise and sometimes wrong. If you look at the Schley tool models
> and years shown here:
> http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=629 it says
> that the 1.8L Integra engine didn't have the hex fitting till '94 and yet,
> to my great relief, my '92 had it. If someone knows the relative sizes of
> '91 vs. '92 Civic pulleys, that might give a starting point for a junkyard
> search.

What's killing me also is online drawings don't even give me a clue. E.g. at
Majestic's site, the drawing http://tinyurl.com/23qjb of the crankshaft pulley
is not accurate, shape-wise. The circumferential holes are actually *outside*
the circumference of the power steering belt wheel. That is, the holes sit on a
larger diameter than the diameter of the power steering belt wheel.

Fortunately I know of one salvage yard that has parts like this literally on
shelves in a huge warehouse. They can easily pull them down so I can take some
measurements. Or they might even know if this is do-able.

This is recreation for me at this point. I'm going to button my car back up
today, drive it to see how my "JB Weld" fix works, and reflect on this whole
pulley holder problem for a week or so. Not down about it. It's mostly
avocational at this point. Of course, if my timing belt fails next month because
of this tiny leak near/at the front crank seal, I'll be eating my words pronto.
:-)

Thanks as always for sharing your pithy experience, George.

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
snip
> > I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft
> > pulleys with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I
> > suspect the pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray
> > into car repairs. :-) (No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have
> > pretty surely a leaking crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried
> > about the timing belt getting oily than anything else.) My pulley's
> > overall diameter is about 5.5 inches; the power steering belt wheel
> > diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone having a crankshaft
> > pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do post the
> > dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
> > dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)
>
> OK, it seems that you have a different crank pulley than the one that I have
> on my '88 Civic.

Now I'm seeing Majestic's pulley sizes vary within the 1988 Civic's. Some of the
part numbers match that for my 1991 Civic's pulley. some do not. The little
sketches of the pulleys all appear the same(!)

> Mine does not have the extra lip for the power steering
> belt. It only has capacity for the alternator and AC belts. Both of these
> belt wheels (or whatever you wish to call them) are about the same
> diameter. The AC belt wheel has a nice flat lip on it. The tool I made for
> my car didn't damage the pulley in any appreciable way.
>
> If it were my unit, I would buy the appropriate holding tool from the
> etoolcart website and replace the damaged pulley with one of the correct
> design for your car from a wrecking yard. I don't know for certain, but it
> could be that the nose of the crankshaft is different on cars that used the
> later pulley design with the 50mm hex. I do know that on a '90 Accord
> (which uses the later pulley design) the keyway for the woodruf key is quite
> different than it is on my Civic. This difference would likely make using a
> later pulley impossible.

Eric,

What you say re interchangeability sounds like a good start. I'll try to confirm
it.

Re getting the proper tool: My only concern is whether even with the correct
tool I could get the torque needed, as I just posted to George. Hopefully I'm
just not seeing all the details of using it yet. The dealer must have a
technique.

I'm tempted to buy a second, used crankshaft pulley and then try a modified
version of your tool. If I bust the old pulley completely, I'll get the correct
pulley holder tool and somehow figure out how to get the torque needed with it.
Then chalk this all up to "education."

Thanks much for posting this.

On 6/7/04 2:17 AM, in article d728c05c8n2i1t3msjo708aj13mgl0d16n@4ax.com,
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 00:45:22 GMT, "Caroline"
> <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote
>> Caroline wrote
>> snip
>>>> Thanks, Kevin, George, and Eric. I'll keep a close eye on the power
>>>> steering
>>>> belt. I'll also consider the interchangeability (esp. diameters) of the
>> current
>>>> pulley with other Honda models' 50 mm (or so?) hex socket version. After a
>> lot
>>>> of reading on this over the last few months, I know what you're talking
>> about.
>>>> I'm seeing tools for my pulley for some $70 or so, while the other pulley
>> holder
>>>> tool can be had for under $30.
>>>
>>> It's 50mm according to service manuals. I hadn't seen any tools for the
>>> pulleys without the hex socket in it - that'd be interesting to have as a
>>> reference here.
>>
>> http://www.etoolcart.com/browseprodu...-Holder---SIRH
>> O60
>> .HTML
>>
>> Also, from the popular UK Honda manual site:
>>
>> http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/Concert...sk301/5-26.pdf
>>
>> and how it's used, more or less (lower right corner of page):
>>
>> http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/Concert...sk301/5-27.pdf
>
> Now that *is* interesting - never seen such a tool in a U.S. Honda manual
> but of course, I've umm, missed a few... anybody else seen this bugger
> mentioned?
>
>> My 91 Civic crankshaft pulley has quite the lip on it where the power
>> steering
>> belt goes. The lip is bowl-shaped, too, meaning bolting a flat bar (part of
>> my
>> proposed crankshaft pulley holding tool) to the pulley puts stress on the
>> lip,
>> if you can picture this.
>>
>> I JB Welded the 0.3 oz. chunk of pulley that came off yesterday. My
>> calculations
>> say it should hold easily, if JB Weld does not lie about the strength of its
>> stuff. OTOH, I'm quite confident of the high probability it will chip off
>> again
>> (or another piece will chip off) when I bolt the tool I'm making (Eric's
>> design,
>> more or less) to it and apply, yup, over 200 ft-lbs so far to the pulley bolt
>> by
>> my rough calculations. I bear in mind I might need lots more.
>>
>> I've been resisting the air impact wrench because clearly I'm going to need a
>> serious one, so it will be a rental to save bucks. Also, I confess after
>> bending
>> one grade 8 bolt yesterday in this effort, and thinking about the force this
>> is
>> going to take, I am starting to think Curly's (tongue-in-cheek?) caution
>> about
>> handling such a heavy duty air impact wrench should be taken seriously. I
>> don't
>> know. A guy can't be that much stronger than me. But we've been over this, ad
>> nauseam...
>
> In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
> specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
> always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
> valve gear flapping around.
>

They only caution not to use the impact wrench when re-installing. No
problem using it to remove the bolt.


>> I will be investigating the details of interchangeability of crankshaft
>> pulleys
>> with a couple of salvage yards I've found, starting tomorrow. I suspect the
>> pulley I have now is not going to survive my latest foray into car repairs.
>> :-)
>> (No, I don't have money to throw away, but I do have pretty surely a leaking
>> crank seal, albeit a very slow leak. More worried about the timing belt
>> getting
>> oily than anything else.) My pulley's overall diameter is about 5.5 inches;
>> the
>> power steering belt wheel diameter is about 3.5 inches, for starters. Anyone
>> having a crankshaft pulley laying around with the 50 mm hex design, etc., do
>> post the dimensions so I can get some idea if this is at all feasible. (Or I
>> dunno, George, maybe you know off the top of your head?)
>
> Sorry I don't know but what I do know is that there were some model years
> which had the hex socket in the pulley and the info on when it appeared is
> vague/imprecise and sometimes wrong. If you look at the Schley tool models
> and years shown here:
> http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=629 it says
> that the 1.8L Integra engine didn't have the hex fitting till '94 and yet,
> to my great relief, my '92 had it. If someone knows the relative sizes of
> '91 vs. '92 Civic pulleys, that might give a starting point for a junkyard
> search.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:50:52 GMT, "E. Meyer" <e52.meyer0SPAM@ieee.org>
wrote:

>On 6/7/04 2:17 AM, in article d728c05c8n2i1t3msjo708aj13mgl0d16n@4ax.com,
>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>> In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
>> specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
>> always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
>> valve gear flapping around.
>>
>
>They only caution not to use the impact wrench when re-installing. No
>problem using it to remove the bolt.

They also show the use of a holding tool and torque wrench to remove the
bolt - read it how you want.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Caroline wrote:
>
> I'm tempted to buy a second, used crankshaft pulley and then try a
> modified version of your tool. If I bust the old pulley completely, I'll
> get the correct pulley holder tool and somehow figure out how to get the
> torque needed with it. Then chalk this all up to "education."

The pulley holding tool at the etoolcart site looks very much like the one
that's illustrated in the manual. However, the honda manual also specifies
that there's a special socket that's to be used with this tool,
http://tinyurl.com/3bbuk. I didn't see this socket available at the
etoolcart site. It might be worth your while to call them and inquire about
the socket. It could be that they intend for you to use your own socket.
For that to work, you'll need to know the inside diameter of their tool and
find a socket that will work.

Eric

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 21:44:00 -0700, Eric <say.no@spam.now> wrote:

>Caroline wrote:
>>
>> I'm tempted to buy a second, used crankshaft pulley and then try a
>> modified version of your tool. If I bust the old pulley completely, I'll
>> get the correct pulley holder tool and somehow figure out how to get the
>> torque needed with it. Then chalk this all up to "education."
>
>The pulley holding tool at the etoolcart site looks very much like the one
>that's illustrated in the manual. However, the honda manual also specifies
>that there's a special socket that's to be used with this tool,
>http://tinyurl.com/3bbuk. I didn't see this socket available at the
>etoolcart site. It might be worth your while to call them and inquire about
>the socket. It could be that they intend for you to use your own socket.
>For that to work, you'll need to know the inside diameter of their tool and
>find a socket that will work.

It's my impression that's just the socket to use with the holding tool and
which gives a little extra depth to get at the bolt head. I'm sure you can
use either just a deep socket or regular socket+extension on a breaker bar
- get the impact strength socket and/or extension type if you think it'll
be better and flex less under torque. I have the Honda 50mm hex tool and
handle and it doesn't require any special socket - it's quite flush with
the pulley face.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George Macdonald wrote:
> It's my impression that's just the socket to use with the holding tool

Correct...

> and which gives a little extra depth to get at the bolt head.

Not entirely. The socket fits through the center part of the holding tool
and functions as a fulcrum allowing the tool to lock the pulley in place.
In essence, the socket is performing two jobs, i.e., it forms a second pin
in the tool similar to the outer bolt that I used in the tool that I made
for my crankshaft pulley (http://tinyurl.com/2x432) and also allows you to
loosen the pulley bolt. The Honda service manual even states that some
molybdenum grease should be applied to the socket thereby suggesting that
the clearance between the holding tool and the socket is important (allowing
the socket to turn while under the friction from acting as a holding pin).

> I'm sure you can use either just a deep socket or regular
> socket+extension on a breaker bar - get the impact strength socket and/or
> extension type if you think it'll be better and flex less under torque.
> I have the Honda 50mm hex tool and handle and it doesn't require any
> special socket - it's quite flush with the pulley face.

Correct. However, the two pulley holding tools work in different ways.
Having the tool flush with the pulley face, although important due to
clearance limitations, is not relevant since the tool for the early pulleys
uses pins to lock into the pulley. A deep impact socket may indeed work.
However, the socket's length and diameter may be important in order for the
tool to function efficiently.

Eric

On 6/7/04 11:34 PM, in article 1obac051stp6gmi5r1cp6or95k141qrf6b@4ax.com,
"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:50:52 GMT, "E. Meyer" <e52.meyer0SPAM@ieee.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/7/04 2:17 AM, in article d728c05c8n2i1t3msjo708aj13mgl0d16n@4ax.com,
>> "George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>>> In recent Honda manuals, where they show the holding tool, there is
>>> specific advice to *not* use an impact wrench. It's something which has
>>> always bothered me - the thought of the bearings getting pounded and the
>>> valve gear flapping around.
>>>
>>
>> They only caution not to use the impact wrench when re-installing. No
>> problem using it to remove the bolt.
>
> They also show the use of a holding tool and torque wrench to remove the
> bolt - read it how you want.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

I have heard a number of reasons why it should be OK to use the impact
wrench to remove it, but not to torque it. Honda doesn't give a reason. My
hypotheses is that you not use the impact wrench to torque it down for fear
a cutting torch will be needed to get it off the next time.

Not having the impact wrench, I've executed that picture on the '96 Odyssey
and the '96 Integra when removing the bolt. Fun to watch from a safe
distance, especially on the Odyssey.

You need a hardened impact socket, extension and breaker bar (lesser stuff
will simply break). All standard sockets fit into the center of the tool.
That was not an issue. You do want a deep well socket though. I used a
jack stand for a fulcrum, a 4 foot piece of gas pipe on the breaker bar for
leverage and a second hardened breaker bar on the "tool" which was allowed
to brace itself against the frame to immobilize the crank shaft. The part
that was fun to watch was the hardened socket extension twisting a full 90
degrees before bolt broke loose. I still don't understand why something
(socket, extension, breaker bar, etc.) didn't break. If I had access to an
impact wrench, I certainly would have used it.

Retightening afterward with a torque wrench is an anti-climax. That 181
ft-lbs of torque to put it back (less on the Integra) is no big deal at all
compared to taking it off.