Honda Car Forum

George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> spake unto the
masses in news:irh5c05hv9qqfnsm777aqqj98t1btrr3e5@4ax.com:

> On 6 Jun 2004 00:59:29 GMT, "Tegger®"
> <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:
>

>>
>>Show us pics of the disassembled filter. FRAMs are distinctive and
>>easily identifiable.
>
> Pic is here http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml near
> the bottom of the page.



Interesting that this page recommends the FRAM x2 for the Prelude
immediately above the pic you reference, but also makes the usual silly,
ignorant comment about the "cardboard" endcaps of other FRAMs.



>
>>And OEM filters made by FRAM are only "crap" to people who have no
>>idea what they are looking at.
>
> That's an old sore.......


Scratch scratch...



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda FAQ
http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/faq.html

How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
www.google.com
www.groups.google.com

No, didn't cut it apart, but when I performed a close visual
inspection of the exterior surfaces of both the FRAM and the STech, as
well as the interior valving area which was visualized through the
threaded hole, they looked virtually identical.

As to FRAM, I don't care if the ends are cardboard; cardboard doesn't
dissolve in oil. But they have a crappy anti-drainback valve, and are
short on a decent amount of high-quality filtering media. Just like
their crappy air filters.

Supertech is a $2 (two dollar) oil filter at walmart. Does ANYTHING
need to be said after that?


JM

On 6 Jun 2004 22:57:47 GMT, "Tegger®"
<teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:

>George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> spake unto the
>masses in news:irh5c05hv9qqfnsm777aqqj98t1btrr3e5@4ax.com:
>
>> On 6 Jun 2004 00:59:29 GMT, "Tegger®"
>> <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>>Show us pics of the disassembled filter. FRAMs are distinctive and
>>>easily identifiable.
>>
>> Pic is here http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml near
>> the bottom of the page.
>
>
>
>Interesting that this page recommends the FRAM x2 for the Prelude
>immediately above the pic you reference, but also makes the usual silly,
>ignorant comment about the "cardboard" endcaps of other FRAMs.

Also interesting that the Fram X2 has err, metal endcaps... a mistake... or
outsource??;-)

>>
>>>And OEM filters made by FRAM are only "crap" to people who have no
>>>idea what they are looking at.
>>
>> That's an old sore.......
>
>
>Scratch scratch...

Oooooh - ça me gratte!:-) All I can say is that I won't use them.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> spake unto the
masses in news:7018c0hpo3rde196jiibvdleisafrku30e@4ax.com:

> On 6 Jun 2004 22:57:47 GMT, "Tegger®"
> <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Also interesting that the Fram X2 has err, metal endcaps... a
> mistake... or outsource??;-)



Outsource, I suspect. Unless Honeywell also makes similar sized filters for
use in water-based applications, in which case they could not use gasket
materials for endcaps.

I cannot see them spending the money on steel end caps unless they are
buying them from China, where the per-piece cost can be as low as 15% of
what it would be here.


--
TeGGeR®

How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
www.google.com
www.groups.google.com

"Tegger®" <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote in message news:<Xns9501586A6419Dteggeratistop@207.14.113.17> ...
> George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> spake unto the
> masses in news:7018c0hpo3rde196jiibvdleisafrku30e@4ax.com:
>
> > On 6 Jun 2004 22:57:47 GMT, "Tegger®"
> > <teggeratistopdotcom@changetheobvious.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Also interesting that the Fram X2 has err, metal endcaps... a
> > mistake... or outsource??;-)
>
>
>
> Outsource, I suspect. Unless Honeywell also makes similar sized filters for
> use in water-based applications, in which case they could not use gasket
> materials for endcaps.
>
> I cannot see them spending the money on steel end caps unless they are
> buying them from China, where the per-piece cost can be as low as 15% of
> what it would be here.

Outsourcing a few parts here or there isn't all that difficult. Even
New Balance, which still has some athletic shoe assembly plants in the
US, uses parts from the Far East. However - I could still imagine
stamping metal endcaps in the US.

As for cardboard, I remember the comments about the Fram cardboard endcaps
collapsing in some forced induction engines - most notably the supercharged
VW G60 engine in the Corrado. I've also taken apart a Fram filter after
a mere 500 miles use, and noticed that some carboard fibers had already
started separating. I started worrying about what might happen under the
heat and contant flexing from oil flow. Oil pumps more or less "pulse"
oil through. I've heard of cases where the lack of rigidity of the
cardboard endcaps have led to the filter media overly flexing and becoming
compromised.

"Howard" <Howard@noyesnoaaa.com> wrote in message
news:yGlwc.4144$c76.2242884@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.ne t...
> Is this good for my accord? someone mentioned an inferior leaf type
bypass
> valve as opposed to spring coil as found in OEM?
I just get the Honda filter at the dealer because they're close, the part
fits, no warranty issues, no worries, etc. The online price is $5.31USD
where I get mine. Order online and pickup at the counter. $8.23 otherwise.
Not sure how they came up with these prices and policies but that's the way
they decided to do it. Even if you pay full price (8.23), it's still less
than $100 per 100k miles difference than the online price if you change your
oil and filter at 3k miles.

The purposes of the end caps are to hold the filter media in the folded state, and to seal the inlet from the outlet. Without them,
the filter would flatten out. Taking the filter element out of its protective case and then putting it on the table to exam its
structural strength point to major flaw in the observer's method. With the element on the table, you could flick your finger to
bend the cardboard end cap. Try doing that with the backing of the case against that cardboard end caps and tell me how your finger
feel.

As for the media flexing, that could occur with any material selected for end caps. When the media traps too much particles to a
point of clogging it, it will collapse no matter how much support there are at the end. That is the reason why there is a
perforated inner tube to support the media in the middle. In the case of collapsing media, the blame should be on the media being
too efficient, or that the oil contains too much suspended particle for the filter to trap effectively during its service life.
I've opened a used Fram filter. One of the fold had flatten out. I won't blame the end cap for inferior integrity to support the
media in the middle. It's nonsense to blame the end cap.

My point is that ALL authors of filter studies referenced on this NG lack basic engineering background. They all have major flaws
on their studies. Oil filtering is a complex process, involving oil pressure, flow rate, filter media, and bypass valve. All those
authors ever done with their studies are to express opinions on visual observation out of context. People need to differentiate
opinions from true scientific studies, and to not promote these opinions as facts.

I've used Fram before. I'm using Supertech now because it's cheaper and have a better O-ring.

y_p_w wrote:

> I've heard of cases where the lack of rigidity of the
> cardboard endcaps have led to the filter media overly flexing and becoming
> compromised.

Sean Dinh <"seanny"@dinh@znet.com> spake unto the masses in
news:1086648682.65963@news-1.nethere.net:


<snip good rant>

>
> My point is that ALL authors of filter studies referenced on this NG
> lack basic engineering background. They all have major flaws on their
> studies. Oil filtering is a complex process, involving oil pressure,
> flow rate, filter media, and bypass valve. All those authors ever done
> with their studies are to express opinions on visual observation out
> of context. People need to differentiate opinions from true scientific
> studies, and to not promote these opinions as facts.



And the material used for FRAM end caps is
**************NOT**************
"cardboard", despite what it might look like to the untrained eye. Anybody
who says otherwise is an ignoramus.

Those "authors of filter studies" are contributing to that "Internet
wisdom" that will result in misinformation and nonsense acquiring
credibility just because it appears in a Google search 20,800 times.

I can see now how legends and myths get started.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda FAQ
http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/faq.html

How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
www.google.com
www.groups.google.com

y_p_w@hotmail.com (y_p_w) spake unto the masses in
news:591da479.0406071147.37250538@posting.google.c om:

>
> Outsourcing a few parts here or there isn't all that difficult.



Well no. Go to Wal-Mart and look down one of the aisles. Some 90% of the
stuff there was not made by the company whose name is on the package.


> However - I could still imagine
> stamping metal endcaps in the US.



You can "imagine" making the endcaps in the US? What does that mean? Please
explain.


>
> As for cardboard, I remember the comments about the Fram cardboard
> endcaps collapsing in some forced induction engines - most notably the
> supercharged VW G60 engine in the Corrado.



1) Were they OEM filters or some chepie picked up at Wal-Mart that may or
may not have been compatible with the stresses found in that engine?

2) If the endcaps had been steel instead of gasket material, would it be
better to have the pleat fold over or the medium separate from the
adhesive, as opposed to having the endcap fold?



> I've also taken apart a
> Fram filter after a mere 500 miles use, and noticed that some carboard
> fibers had already started separating.


How do you know they weren't that way before the filter was installed? How
many of these have you disassembled before installation?

Have you conducted an analysis of the filter and the oil to determine if
the fibers have actually been separating or just *look like they might do
so?



> I started worrying about what
> might happen under the heat and contant flexing from oil flow.



Obviously Honda, with millions of dollars in warranty claims at stake, does
not share your "worry".


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda FAQ
http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/faq.html

How to find anything on the Internet or in Usenet Groups:
www.google.com
www.groups.google.com

Sean Dinh wrote:

> The purposes of the end caps are to hold the filter media in the
> folded state, and to seal the inlet from the outlet. Without them,
> the filter would flatten out. Taking the filter element out of its
> protective case and then putting it on the table to exam its
> structural strength point to major flaw in the observer's method.
> With the element on the table, you could flick your finger to
> bend the cardboard end cap. Try doing that with the backing of the
> case against that cardboard end caps and tell me how your finger
> feel.

I've taken apart several oil filters myself. As far as I could tell,
the only thing that the case would add rigidity to is the center
tube. I've also seen that the epoxy that held a Fram element to the
endcap was spotty on some edges. Some have reported that they've
seen ones where the glue was incomplete in some areas to the point
where unfiltered oil could pass through. At the very least, I've
heard from one person who worked in oil filter manufacturing that
the standard canted metal design is far superior because the element
self-centers to the endcap/glue.

I'm also wary about Fram because they're the ONLY major manufacturer
that uses cardboard (or whatever paper composite they use) instead
of metal for the vast majority of their filters. When Fram sells an
exposed filter (like for several GM cars) they do use a metal end
cap, and sell it for about the same price as their other filters.
I've only heard of one other manufacturer that will use cardboard -
Purolator for a very limited number of their filters.