Honda Car Forum

These are my current beliefs on this subject.
Please correct me if I'm wrong or if you have a good reference.

I have a Honda CRX HF 89 and 91 but I suppose this has other relevance.
I have service manuals from Helms, there might be more detailed manuals.

The only front end alignment that is easy it toe-in.
All the rest of the alignment (camber and caster)
is not supposed to be adjusted (but relies on intact bushings)
and can only be changed by bending heavy frame and suspension items,
something you can't do at home.

The inner lower control arm bushing has its axis a bolt in line front to back.
The bushing is two steel cylinders with rubber between.
The inner steel cylinder is longer than the outer.
The bolt pinches a frame bracket into contact with the inner cylinder.
The outer cylinder is press-fit into the control arm.
The rubber is glued between the cylinders and also the cylinders have grooves
that hold the rubber.

One way it fails is for the rubber to break loose from the inner cylinder.
If the bushing is not broken, there is equal distance front and back
between the outer cylinder and the frame bracket, say quarter inch.
When it is broken, the control arm rides back and there is no distance
between it and the rearward frame bracket.
Hard to explain, a picture would be better.

Why does the control arm ride back?
When the bushing is broke, the control arm pivots around the radius rod.
The front wheel when driven pulls the outer end of the arm forward,
the inner end of the arm is pivoted back.

I suppose if the bushing is bad enough, when you brake and accelerate,
the inner end of the arm moves back and forth, frontward and rearward.
But I suspect the inner end of the control arm comes to live,
more or less permanently, driven back as far as the frame bracket
(so the rear end of the outer cylinder is as far rearward
as the rear end of the longer inner cylinder).
I am guessing that the wheels are pulling more often than they are braked,
and over time the inner end of the control arm moves backward
and stays there unless you brake very hard several times is a row.

On my car a quarter inch movement on the inner end of the control arm
yields only an eighth inch on the outer end.
And that is only about one degree on a horizontal circle
around the pivot point where the radius arm meets the control arm.

That is significant with respect to toe-in, specced at 2mm or 0.08 inch.
(I think that is measured as difference of distance between fronts
distance between rear of tires.)
One degree of twist from a broken bushing yields a differnce of 0.2 inch
from front to back of a 13" wheel with tire.
Which is about twice the specced toe-in.

I suppose when the bushing fails, and IF the control arm does assume
a new stable position, that a toe-in adjustment would fix the symptoms
if not the cause.

As for caster, assume the eighth inch front to back movement
of the outer end of the control arm
is at a radius of 2 feet from the upper end of the McPherson strut,
which is the pivot for change in caster
(more or less, the geometry may be more complicated than that).
That eighth inch is only about one quarter degree of caster.
Which is not significant compared to the three degrees specced.

Should have no effect on camber.

If the bushing on one side breaks and not the other,
should the steering pull to one side or the other?
I would not think so,
since the wheel now out of kilter would just push
the other wheel to a new position.
The toe-in would be wrong but the steering should not pull.
Maybe the steering wheel would be pointing wrong,
but I doubt you would notice it.

I am currently trying a large plastic washer
between the frame bracket and the control arm.
In the miserly HF driving I do,
I don't want the possibility of an alignment change
under the heavy accerlating and braking that I don't do.
I am blaming the broken bushing on previous owners
hitting the curb when pushing the already phenomenal
turning radius.
I will see how long the plastic washer lasts.

I really think by current noise problems that I have
are just caused by cheap tires getting out of round.
One set has very noticeable set of waves
on the inner side, but only on one segment around the tire.
To my mind, that is probably a manufacturing defect,
and not caused by front-end alignment.
I really don't think new bushings are justified.

One of my cars WAS pulling right, but using a laser level
I adjusted the aim of the REAR wheels, which
seems to have fixed most of the pulling.

Other posts suggest that you live with broken bushings
unless you notice tire wear or steering problems or noise.
Other posts suggest that you can buy new bushings
and press them in with a large hydraulic press (rarely done),
or buy the control arm with bushings already in (usually done.)

Are you just rambling, or is there a question somewhere?

On 27 Apr 2004 08:55:12 -0700, bootch@nc.rr.com (bootch) wrote:

||These are my current beliefs on this subject.
||Please correct me if I'm wrong or if you have a good reference.
||
||I have a Honda CRX HF 89 and 91 but I suppose this has other relevance.
||I have service manuals from Helms, there might be more detailed manuals.
||
||The only front end alignment that is easy it toe-in.
||All the rest of the alignment (camber and caster)
||is not supposed to be adjusted (but relies on intact bushings)
||and can only be changed by bending heavy frame and suspension items,
||something you can't do at home.
||
||The inner lower control arm bushing has its axis a bolt in line front to back.
||The bushing is two steel cylinders with rubber between.
||The inner steel cylinder is longer than the outer.
||The bolt pinches a frame bracket into contact with the inner cylinder.
||The outer cylinder is press-fit into the control arm.
||The rubber is glued between the cylinders and also the cylinders have grooves
||that hold the rubber.
||
||One way it fails is for the rubber to break loose from the inner cylinder.
||If the bushing is not broken, there is equal distance front and back
||between the outer cylinder and the frame bracket, say quarter inch.
||When it is broken, the control arm rides back and there is no distance
||between it and the rearward frame bracket.
||Hard to explain, a picture would be better.
||
||Why does the control arm ride back?
||When the bushing is broke, the control arm pivots around the radius rod.
||The front wheel when driven pulls the outer end of the arm forward,
||the inner end of the arm is pivoted back.
||
||I suppose if the bushing is bad enough, when you brake and accelerate,
||the inner end of the arm moves back and forth, frontward and rearward.
||But I suspect the inner end of the control arm comes to live,
||more or less permanently, driven back as far as the frame bracket
||(so the rear end of the outer cylinder is as far rearward
||as the rear end of the longer inner cylinder).
||I am guessing that the wheels are pulling more often than they are braked,
||and over time the inner end of the control arm moves backward
||and stays there unless you brake very hard several times is a row.
||
||On my car a quarter inch movement on the inner end of the control arm
||yields only an eighth inch on the outer end.
||And that is only about one degree on a horizontal circle
||around the pivot point where the radius arm meets the control arm.
||
||That is significant with respect to toe-in, specced at 2mm or 0.08 inch.
||(I think that is measured as difference of distance between fronts
||distance between rear of tires.)
||One degree of twist from a broken bushing yields a differnce of 0.2 inch
||from front to back of a 13" wheel with tire.
||Which is about twice the specced toe-in.
||
||I suppose when the bushing fails, and IF the control arm does assume
||a new stable position, that a toe-in adjustment would fix the symptoms
||if not the cause.
||
||As for caster, assume the eighth inch front to back movement
||of the outer end of the control arm
||is at a radius of 2 feet from the upper end of the McPherson strut,
||which is the pivot for change in caster
||(more or less, the geometry may be more complicated than that).
||That eighth inch is only about one quarter degree of caster.
||Which is not significant compared to the three degrees specced.
||
||Should have no effect on camber.
||
||If the bushing on one side breaks and not the other,
||should the steering pull to one side or the other?
||I would not think so,
||since the wheel now out of kilter would just push
||the other wheel to a new position.
||The toe-in would be wrong but the steering should not pull.
||Maybe the steering wheel would be pointing wrong,
||but I doubt you would notice it.
||
||I am currently trying a large plastic washer
||between the frame bracket and the control arm.
||In the miserly HF driving I do,
||I don't want the possibility of an alignment change
||under the heavy accerlating and braking that I don't do.
||I am blaming the broken bushing on previous owners
||hitting the curb when pushing the already phenomenal
||turning radius.
||I will see how long the plastic washer lasts.
||
||I really think by current noise problems that I have
||are just caused by cheap tires getting out of round.
||One set has very noticeable set of waves
||on the inner side, but only on one segment around the tire.
||To my mind, that is probably a manufacturing defect,
||and not caused by front-end alignment.
||I really don't think new bushings are justified.
||
||One of my cars WAS pulling right, but using a laser level
||I adjusted the aim of the REAR wheels, which
||seems to have fixed most of the pulling.
||
||Other posts suggest that you live with broken bushings
||unless you notice tire wear or steering problems or noise.
||Other posts suggest that you can buy new bushings
||and press them in with a large hydraulic press (rarely done),
||or buy the control arm with bushings already in (usually done.)

Rex in Fort Worth

NOSPAMrex@REMOVEtxol.net (Rex B) wrote in message news:<4090144a.199223545@news.txol.net>...
> Are you just rambling, or is there a question somewhere?
>


OK, a bit of rambling.

Question: am I correct about the integrity of these bushings, the
outer sleeve is not supposed to slide backward to contact the frame
bracket?

Question: am I correct that if it does slide back, it matters to
toe-in only?

Question: am I wasting my time with a plastic washer, will it wear
away within 10k miles?

||Question: am I correct about the integrity of these bushings, the
||outer sleeve is not supposed to slide backward to contact the frame
||bracket?

That is correct

||Question: am I correct that if it does slide back, it matters to
||toe-in only?

No it also affects caster. And if the bushing is worn enough to allow that, I
bet camber is also variable.

||Question: am I wasting my time with a plastic washer, will it wear
||away within 10k miles?

Don't bother. If it were mine (and I have an HF) I'd get some polyurethane
bushings and change them out.
Rex in Fort Worth

On 29 Apr 2004 07:52:01 -0700, bootch@nc.rr.com (bootch) wrote:

>NOSPAMrex@REMOVEtxol.net (Rex B) wrote in message news:<4090144a.199223545@news.txol.net>...
>> Are you just rambling, or is there a question somewhere?
>>
>
>
>OK, a bit of rambling.
>
>Question: am I correct about the integrity of these bushings, the
>outer sleeve is not supposed to slide backward to contact the frame
>bracket?
>
>Question: am I correct that if it does slide back, it matters to
>toe-in only?
>
>Question: am I wasting my time with a plastic washer, will it wear
>away within 10k miles?

Why are you trying to do a patch job? You are risking your life here. See
here: http://tinyurl.com/2aark for a new bushing for $16.09. The labor is
a big part of the cost of the job of course and there may be other things
which need replaced but the entire arm is only $114.14.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message news:<3lm290lvq6hktrupve35iqacomq94lbt48@4ax.com>. ..
>
> Why are you trying to do a patch job? You are risking your life here. See
> here: http://tinyurl.com/2aark for a new bushing for $16.09. The labor is
> a big part of the cost of the job of course and there may be other things
> which need replaced but the entire arm is only $114.14.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??


I drive a CRX HF because I am stingy. $16 is $16, a tank of gas (these days.)

Also, you can insert the "patch job" plastic washers in about an hour.
To install the bushings requires much more labor and better tools.

(Side note: I use a pickle fork instead of a ball joint puller.
Is that a mistake too?)

This is the second bad, bushing, on two different cars, that I have found.
Both were on the right side.
I suspect that this bushing is the part that fails when you hit a curb hard.
I have read elsewhere that the CRX (Civic?)suspension is fragile:
you hit a curb, something breaks.
I envision this rubber bushing, in shear stress, yielding before any other part.

I also suspect that many tire-shop mechanics are not aware of this problem,
or don't bother to recommend changing the bushing,
because once the bushing has failed but not really gotten loose,
it is stable in the wrong position and a toe-in adjustment in that position
"fixes" the problem.
To me, that is the real "patch job".

I disagree that a broken bushing has much effect on camber or caster.
The change to the toe-in is relatively much greater than the change to caster.
And a change in caster would not have much effect on most driving,
only turns.
Camber should not change at all unless the rubber part of the bushing is way gone.

Risking my life? Driving a CRX is accepting much risk.
One of the lightest and lowest and least visible cars made,
without air bags.
Relatively speaking, patching a bushing is low risk.

||(Side note: I use a pickle fork instead of a ball joint puller.
||Is that a mistake too?)

Only that it cuts the boot. If you replace the boot each time it's fine.


||I disagree that a broken bushing has much effect on camber or caster.
||The change to the toe-in is relatively much greater than the change to caster.
||And a change in caster would not have much effect on most driving,
||only turns.
||Camber should not change at all unless the rubber part of the bushing is way
gone.

It's all relative. Most busing failers result in the rubber comin apart. That
lets the a-arm move in ways it shouldn't, affecting all three. Obviously the
effect depends on where the rubber is missing. A very small loss of rubber in
the right spot can result in a lot of caster change, but little camber or toe
change.

Your statement that you have replaced the plastic washer twice is a pretty good
indicator or the quality of that repair.
Texas Parts Guy

On 14 May 2004 06:48:03 -0700, bootch@nc.rr.com (bootch) wrote:

>George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message news:<3lm290lvq6hktrupve35iqacomq94lbt48@4ax.com>. ..
>>
>> Why are you trying to do a patch job? You are risking your life here. See
>> here: http://tinyurl.com/2aark for a new bushing for $16.09. The labor is
>> a big part of the cost of the job of course and there may be other things
>> which need replaced but the entire arm is only $114.14.
>>
>> Rgds, George Macdonald
>>
>> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
>
>
>I drive a CRX HF because I am stingy. $16 is $16, a tank of gas (these days.)
>
>Also, you can insert the "patch job" plastic washers in about an hour.
>To install the bushings requires much more labor and better tools.
>
>(Side note: I use a pickle fork instead of a ball joint puller.
>Is that a mistake too?)

If it rips the ball joint boot obviously... unless you have time to
regrease it every other week. Time is money... unless you have nothing
better to do.

>This is the second bad, bushing, on two different cars, that I have found.
>Both were on the right side.
>I suspect that this bushing is the part that fails when you hit a curb hard.
>I have read elsewhere that the CRX (Civic?)suspension is fragile:
>you hit a curb, something breaks.
>I envision this rubber bushing, in shear stress, yielding before any other part.
>
>I also suspect that many tire-shop mechanics are not aware of this problem,
>or don't bother to recommend changing the bushing,
>because once the bushing has failed but not really gotten loose,
>it is stable in the wrong position and a toe-in adjustment in that position
>"fixes" the problem.
>To me, that is the real "patch job".
>
>I disagree that a broken bushing has much effect on camber or caster.
>The change to the toe-in is relatively much greater than the change to caster.
>And a change in caster would not have much effect on most driving,
>only turns.
>Camber should not change at all unless the rubber part of the bushing is way gone.

You appear not to appreciate what caster is or how it affects drivability.

>Risking my life? Driving a CRX is accepting much risk.
>One of the lightest and lowest and least visible cars made,
>without air bags.
>Relatively speaking, patching a bushing is low risk.

For me, sharing the road with you, it seems like high risk.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??