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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10 Apr 2004, 05:11 pm
eswaroop
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Default 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

Badly need help figuring out what is wrong. All this started after a
valve adjustment which was done improperly, and fixed later by me.

Here is what I know till date. The car runs okay for the first 15
minutes or so and then the performance and mileage drop drastically.
It seems to limp around even if I floor the pedal.

No CEL codes

The ignition timing advance is 10 degrees during idle ( must be
between 11 and 13 according to the honda diagnostics unit).

The spark plugs are blackened (sooty, so rich mixture)

The o2 sensor is shifting between .1 and .89 volts, but quickly enough
or not - I dont know..

The car revs smoothly, too smoothly than it ever did earlier in fact
(maybe sign of retarded timing)

I think the exhaust is heating up a lot more than usual (again sign of
retarded timing?)

Drives okay for around first 15 minutes, then acceleration and
response declines drastically as I drive longer, mileage also suffers.

What could be wrong??

thanks,

es
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11 Apr 2004, 04:47 am
George Macdonald
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Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

On 10 Apr 2004 15:11:35 -0700, ramswaroop@hotmail.com (eswaroop) wrote:

>Badly need help figuring out what is wrong. All this started after a
>valve adjustment which was done improperly, and fixed later by me.


What engine is this? Are you 100% sure valves are OK now?

>Here is what I know till date. The car runs okay for the first 15
>minutes or so and then the performance and mileage drop drastically.
>It seems to limp around even if I floor the pedal.
>
>No CEL codes
>
>The ignition timing advance is 10 degrees during idle ( must be
>between 11 and 13 according to the honda diagnostics unit).


The L4 engine spec is 12BTDC +/-2 so it's close.

>The spark plugs are blackened (sooty, so rich mixture)
>
>The o2 sensor is shifting between .1 and .89 volts, but quickly enough
>or not - I dont know..
>
>The car revs smoothly, too smoothly than it ever did earlier in fact
>(maybe sign of retarded timing)
>
>I think the exhaust is heating up a lot more than usual (again sign of
>retarded timing?)
>
>Drives okay for around first 15 minutes, then acceleration and
>response declines drastically as I drive longer, mileage also suffers.
>
>What could be wrong??


Is the engine getting up to full operating temp?... maybe think about
changing thermostat anyway?? I believe your car still has separate temp
gauge and ECT sensors so the next thing I'd check is the ECT sensor for
resistance when engine is hot. Other than that it could be a sensor
problem someplace else - TDC, CYP, throttle position, MAP, etc. Start by
checking harnesses and connectors.

Have you checked that the MIL lamp is working at ignition on? The fact
that you're not getting a MIL when the thing is so obviously out of whack
could also mean the ECM is bad.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11 Apr 2004, 06:22 am
Graham W
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

eswaroop wrote:
> Badly need help figuring out what is wrong. All this started after a
> valve adjustment which was done improperly, and fixed later by me.
>
> Here is what I know till date. The car runs okay for the first 15
> minutes or so and then the performance and mileage drop drastically.
> It seems to limp around even if I floor the pedal.
>
> No CEL codes
>
> The ignition timing advance is 10 degrees during idle ( must be
> between 11 and 13 according to the honda diagnostics unit).
>
> The spark plugs are blackened (sooty, so rich mixture)
>
> The o2 sensor is shifting between .1 and .89 volts, but quickly enough
> or not - I dont know..
>
> The car revs smoothly, too smoothly than it ever did earlier in fact
> (maybe sign of retarded timing)
>
> I think the exhaust is heating up a lot more than usual (again sign of
> retarded timing?)
>
> Drives okay for around first 15 minutes, then acceleration and
> response declines drastically as I drive longer, mileage also suffers.


Has the air filter collapsed and is getting sucked into the 'out' port
or is water spray getting sucked into the air intake?
Can you inspect the filter after a run where the problem arises
and maybe remove it and try without for a very short run (1/2 mile)?

--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11 Apr 2004, 10:18 am
eswaroop
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

Hi,

The valves were adjusted too tightly, I am pretty much sure some of
them were burnt to an extent before I set them back to specs.. So do
the symptoms below seem to gel with that, burnt valves and compression
loss?

Thanks

es
George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message news:<e51i701qp7jt7cino23a2iu3tvhc5ocs03@4ax.com>. ..
> On 10 Apr 2004 15:11:35 -0700, ramswaroop@hotmail.com (eswaroop) wrote:
>
> >Badly need help figuring out what is wrong. All this started after a
> >valve adjustment which was done improperly, and fixed later by me.

>
> What engine is this? Are you 100% sure valves are OK now?
>
> >Here is what I know till date. The car runs okay for the first 15
> >minutes or so and then the performance and mileage drop drastically.
> >It seems to limp around even if I floor the pedal.
> >
> >No CEL codes
> >
> >The ignition timing advance is 10 degrees during idle ( must be
> >between 11 and 13 according to the honda diagnostics unit).

>
> The L4 engine spec is 12BTDC +/-2 so it's close.
>
> >The spark plugs are blackened (sooty, so rich mixture)
> >
> >The o2 sensor is shifting between .1 and .89 volts, but quickly enough
> >or not - I dont know..
> >
> >The car revs smoothly, too smoothly than it ever did earlier in fact
> >(maybe sign of retarded timing)
> >
> >I think the exhaust is heating up a lot more than usual (again sign of
> >retarded timing?)
> >
> >Drives okay for around first 15 minutes, then acceleration and
> >response declines drastically as I drive longer, mileage also suffers.
> >
> >What could be wrong??

>
> Is the engine getting up to full operating temp?... maybe think about
> changing thermostat anyway?? I believe your car still has separate temp
> gauge and ECT sensors so the next thing I'd check is the ECT sensor for
> resistance when engine is hot. Other than that it could be a sensor
> problem someplace else - TDC, CYP, throttle position, MAP, etc. Start by
> checking harnesses and connectors.
>
> Have you checked that the MIL lamp is working at ignition on? The fact
> that you're not getting a MIL when the thing is so obviously out of whack
> could also mean the ECM is bad.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11 Apr 2004, 07:55 pm
eswaroop
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

The air filter looks fine to me, though I really have not checked it
in the middle of the problem. Where does the water spray you are
talking about come from??

Also, all the connectors seem fine to me and I had the car hooked up
to a diagnostic unit to see if any codes were set, and did not find
any, so I presume the light is working.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12 Apr 2004, 02:22 am
George Macdonald
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

On 11 Apr 2004 08:18:25 -0700, ramswaroop@hotmail.com (eswaroop) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>The valves were adjusted too tightly, I am pretty much sure some of
>them were burnt to an extent before I set them back to specs.. So do
>the symptoms below seem to gel with that, burnt valves and compression
>loss?


With a burnt valve(s) I'd think you'd be able to feel some other symptoms,
like severe chugging at transition from coasting to light acceleration.
I'd also expect a check engine on the MIL if they were that bad. Have you
tried turning the engine over by hand, as one does during a valve check,
with a wrench on the crank pulley bolt to see if you hear the valves
hissing and low resistance on the compression strokes?... crude form of
compression check which you might also want to do more thoroughly.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12 Apr 2004, 10:32 am
Graham W
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

eswaroop wrote:
> The air filter looks fine to me, though I really have not checked it
> in the middle of the problem. Where does the water spray you are
> talking about come from??


From outside! Maybe thrown up by driving through a stream or
splashing through puddles.

> Also, all the connectors seem fine to me and I had the car hooked up
> to a diagnostic unit to see if any codes were set, and did not find
> any, so I presume the light is working.


Have you seen the light illuminate? The filament could have failed.

Have you polished the inside of the distributor cap? Could be damp.
--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12 Apr 2004, 01:28 pm
asdf
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

Hi,

This sounds terrible, but I tried turning the crank yesterday and I am
hearing fairly audible hiss on cylinders 1 and 3.. I am gonna get a
compression check done tommorrow, seems like its gonna be bad news.

I dont notice severe chugging but it is noticeable, even if i floor the gas,
the car does not respond, then tries, gives up, tries gives up...

Talked to the service manager today, and he is trying to escape from fixing
the problem by saying that it is normal for a 70k miles car. These fellows
are really bad.
What can I do if they dont take responsibility??

Also, how hard is it gonna be to change the valves? Sounds like a time
consuming task...

In case I do have damage to the car, will it be just the valves or would the
exhaust and intake manifolds also take some wear? If so, should I change the
head?

Damn it, this sounds bad.

Ramswaroop


"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:08kj70160rbea2nofjv0n4kmuee39q8ia5@4ax.com...
> On 11 Apr 2004 08:18:25 -0700, ramswaroop@hotmail.com (eswaroop) wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >The valves were adjusted too tightly, I am pretty much sure some of
> >them were burnt to an extent before I set them back to specs.. So do
> >the symptoms below seem to gel with that, burnt valves and compression
> >loss?

>
> With a burnt valve(s) I'd think you'd be able to feel some other symptoms,
> like severe chugging at transition from coasting to light acceleration.
> I'd also expect a check engine on the MIL if they were that bad. Have you
> tried turning the engine over by hand, as one does during a valve check,
> with a wrench on the crank pulley bolt to see if you hear the valves
> hissing and low resistance on the compression strokes?... crude form of
> compression check which you might also want to do more thoroughly.
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,

me??


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12 Apr 2004, 06:30 pm
George Macdonald
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:28:07 -0500, "asdf" <ramswaroop@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>This sounds terrible, but I tried turning the crank yesterday and I am
>hearing fairly audible hiss on cylinders 1 and 3.. I am gonna get a
>compression check done tommorrow, seems like its gonna be bad news.


Well you *will* always hear *some* hiss but along with the back pressure of
the valves sealing. IOW the air will escape slowly with the compression -
I guess you've compared with the "feel" of the compression stroke on the
other cylinders.

>I dont notice severe chugging but it is noticeable, even if i floor the gas,
>the car does not respond, then tries, gives up, tries gives up...
>
>Talked to the service manager today, and he is trying to escape from fixing
>the problem by saying that it is normal for a 70k miles car. These fellows
>are really bad.
>What can I do if they dont take responsibility??


Was it them who set the valves too tight in the first place? Is this a
Honda dealer? Only recourse I can think of would be if it fails an
emissions check... then it *could* be a warranty issue.

>Also, how hard is it gonna be to change the valves? Sounds like a time
>consuming task...
>
>In case I do have damage to the car, will it be just the valves or would the
>exhaust and intake manifolds also take some wear? If so, should I change the
>head?


New valves almost inevitably and it depends onhow bad the valve seats are
burnt, whether they can be reground or have to be replaced - a new head
might be a better option given the $$ involved. If that service place
can't set the valve clearances right in the first place, unlikely I'd trust
them with that kind of work.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 12 Apr 2004, 07:57 pm
eswaroop
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 99 accord, power and mileage loss , car is limping around..

No, the air filter looks fine to me.

No I have not tried polishing the distributor cap, but the engine (and
the distibutor) is getting so hot that I cannot imagine any moisture
anywhere close to the cap..

Did not check the bulb, but as I said, I hooked it up to a diagnostic
unit to see if any codes were set(the bulb lights up only when a code
is set right?), no codes have been stored by the ECU.

I think I am losing compression on a couple of cylinders and am
planning to get a leakdown test done. What would be acceptable figures
on this car?

Thanks

rao

"Graham W" <graham@his.com.puterINVALID> wrote in message news:<J2Eec.29550$h44.4251675@stones.force9.net>.. .
> eswaroop wrote:
> > The air filter looks fine to me, though I really have not checked it
> > in the middle of the problem. Where does the water spray you are
> > talking about come from??

>
> From outside! Maybe thrown up by driving through a stream or
> splashing through puddles.
>
> > Also, all the connectors seem fine to me and I had the car hooked up
> > to a diagnostic unit to see if any codes were set, and did not find
> > any, so I presume the light is working.

>
> Have you seen the light illuminate? The filament could have failed.
>
> Have you polished the inside of the distributor cap? Could be damp.

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