Honda Car Forum

So George, are you saying that my experience with 2 different Honda's and
over half a million kms and not one pump failure is not possible because the
Prestone and tap water are so CRAP?

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:2n8280p23ct6slojf6ij0lffhusg246ln5@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:51:45 -0400, "Grahame" <grahame.joyce@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >Is there now a problem with tap water?
>
> Of course. Apart from the possibility of solids coming out of solution
and
> clogging passages, most tap water is at least a mild electrolyte and some
> are quite efficient electrolytes. Putting such stuff in an engine where
> you have different metals........<shrug>
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,
me??

> So George, are you saying that my experience with 2 different Honda's and
> over half a million kms and not one pump failure is not possible because
the
> Prestone and tap water are so CRAP?

maybe youve got really soft tap water, and its the hard water thats to
blame. .

just do whatever works for you.

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 14:59:08 -0400, "Grahame" <grahame.joyce@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>So George, are you saying that my experience with 2 different Honda's and
>over half a million kms and not one pump failure is not possible because the
>Prestone and tap water are so CRAP?

For the tap water, possibly your tap water is relatively benign, either
because it comes that way or you have a filter. For many others it's a
definite risk. When I'm freezing in my car and the heater is not up to the
weather, or the A/C is causing overheating, I want to be sure it's not
because I used tap water - modern cooling systems, especially heater cores,
have very narrow passages.

For the antifreeze, it might be that your annual change means that the
silicates are not in there long enough to gel out and cause water pump
problems... or possibly Honda water pumps have varied over the years in
their susceptibility to the problem. As a former chemist, I appreciate
some of the things that can go wrong here, though I have not studied the
details of the specific reactions involved.

Either way, my experience is contrary to yours: I've seen water pump
failure at ~20K miles after using Prestone regular antifreeze and I've run
the Honda coolant for the normal scheduled changes with no problems. The
bad water pump I took out, at ~70K miles, could not be turned by hand and
the timing belt was stretched; the good water pump I took out, at 98K miles
after using Honda coolant, looked in perfect condition with just very
slight staining at the weep holes and the belt showed no real signs of
stretch. Since you've actually done that many miles, my question to you
would be: have you actually examined the condition of the water pumps taken
out of your engines and have you examined the corresponding timing belts
for stretch?

If you look back in the archives, you'll find that in Feb '97 or so, I was
one of the first posters here to associate the water pump failure with
silicate, specifically Prestone regular, antifreeze. This came about
because, as I stood at the parts dept. buying my new water pump and
wondering why it had failed, I glanced at the wall where there was a poster
which showed comparison pictures of water pump internals - Honda coolant
vs. Brand-X if you like. Like most people, my inital reaction was
scepticism of marketing BS but after thinking about it I decided to not
take the risk for the small difference in price - $10. or so every 30K
miles, and say $20. every 60K miles with Honda Type 2, is small change for
the peace of mind, vs. the possibility of a wrecked engine.

I think there have been enough posts by others, relating similar
experiences, to confirm the potential danger which is implicit in the Honda
owner/service manuals and their TSBs. Here's a TSB:
http://www.nhtsa.com/TSBScans/sb627281.pdf on coolant leaks in '99/2K L4
Accords, which is not related to antifreeze type but see what it says about
which coolant to use in para #16. Are you going to believe this or
somebody at Honda Canada you talked to on the 'phone?

>"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
>news:2n8280p23ct6slojf6ij0lffhusg246ln5@4ax.com.. .
>> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:51:45 -0400, "Grahame" <grahame.joyce@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Is there now a problem with tap water?
>>
>> Of course. Apart from the possibility of solids coming out of solution
>and
>> clogging passages, most tap water is at least a mild electrolyte and some
>> are quite efficient electrolytes. Putting such stuff in an engine where
>> you have different metals........<shrug>

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Yes George the water quality varies with geographical location and no my
water is unfiltered.
Are we on to something here?, could it be that annual changes are the
answer?
I changed the timing belts in the Prelude myself, the only thing done to the
pump was to change the o-ring once because it was leaking.
The pumps in the Accord were changed by the dealer so I never saw them.
Don't forget we are talking about a 91 Accord here and Honda has obviously
changed their recommendation for newer models since I called them.
Thanks for the wealth of information, and I will not be recommending anyone
use my example but I will continue with Prestone and tap water and will let
you know the minute I have any failures in the future.

"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in message
news:bp738052ig4llu54t5ij25aea8hi8bd894@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 14:59:08 -0400, "Grahame" <grahame.joyce@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >So George, are you saying that my experience with 2 different Honda's and
> >over half a million kms and not one pump failure is not possible because
the
> >Prestone and tap water are so CRAP?
>
> For the tap water, possibly your tap water is relatively benign, either
> because it comes that way or you have a filter. For many others it's a
> definite risk. When I'm freezing in my car and the heater is not up to
the
> weather, or the A/C is causing overheating, I want to be sure it's not
> because I used tap water - modern cooling systems, especially heater
cores,
> have very narrow passages.
>
> For the antifreeze, it might be that your annual change means that the
> silicates are not in there long enough to gel out and cause water pump
> problems... or possibly Honda water pumps have varied over the years in
> their susceptibility to the problem. As a former chemist, I appreciate
> some of the things that can go wrong here, though I have not studied the
> details of the specific reactions involved.
>
> Either way, my experience is contrary to yours: I've seen water pump
> failure at ~20K miles after using Prestone regular antifreeze and I've run
> the Honda coolant for the normal scheduled changes with no problems. The
> bad water pump I took out, at ~70K miles, could not be turned by hand and
> the timing belt was stretched; the good water pump I took out, at 98K
miles
> after using Honda coolant, looked in perfect condition with just very
> slight staining at the weep holes and the belt showed no real signs of
> stretch. Since you've actually done that many miles, my question to you
> would be: have you actually examined the condition of the water pumps
taken
> out of your engines and have you examined the corresponding timing belts
> for stretch?
>
> If you look back in the archives, you'll find that in Feb '97 or so, I was
> one of the first posters here to associate the water pump failure with
> silicate, specifically Prestone regular, antifreeze. This came about
> because, as I stood at the parts dept. buying my new water pump and
> wondering why it had failed, I glanced at the wall where there was a
poster
> which showed comparison pictures of water pump internals - Honda coolant
> vs. Brand-X if you like. Like most people, my inital reaction was
> scepticism of marketing BS but after thinking about it I decided to not
> take the risk for the small difference in price - $10. or so every 30K
> miles, and say $20. every 60K miles with Honda Type 2, is small change for
> the peace of mind, vs. the possibility of a wrecked engine.
>
> I think there have been enough posts by others, relating similar
> experiences, to confirm the potential danger which is implicit in the
Honda
> owner/service manuals and their TSBs. Here's a TSB:
> http://www.nhtsa.com/TSBScans/sb627281.pdf on coolant leaks in '99/2K L4
> Accords, which is not related to antifreeze type but see what it says
about
> which coolant to use in para #16. Are you going to believe this or
> somebody at Honda Canada you talked to on the 'phone?
>
> >"George Macdonald" <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote in
message
> >news:2n8280p23ct6slojf6ij0lffhusg246ln5@4ax.com.. .
> >> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:51:45 -0400, "Grahame"
<grahame.joyce@sympatico.ca>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Is there now a problem with tap water?
> >>
> >> Of course. Apart from the possibility of solids coming out of solution
> >and
> >> clogging passages, most tap water is at least a mild electrolyte and
some
> >> are quite efficient electrolytes. Putting such stuff in an engine
where
> >> you have different metals........<shrug>
>
> Rgds, George Macdonald
>
> "Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who,
me??