Honda Car Forum

"Crunchy Cookie" <LSC400@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Uv6%b.16408$AL.333714@attbi_s03...
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:aFR_b.8309$aT1.8294@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> > 1.
> > Here's an interesting way to help decide when to buy a new car: Put
together a
> > spreadsheet for your car's costs. Every month, record the dollars you
pay for
> > car parts, car repairs, and car maintenance. Maintain a running total of
$
> paid
> > in another column. The running total must include the initial purchase
price
> of
> > the car. Every month, divide the *total* you have paid for the car and
its
> care
> > (over its lifetime) by the total months you have driven it. You may also
> compute
> > the $/mile, too. Initially, the dollars/month is very high, because the
> initial
> > cost of the car dominates. But then naturally the $/month immediately
declines
> > for at least several years, as the initial cost is naturally "amortized"
over
> > the car's life. Also the costs of parts, repairs, and maintenance in the
early
> > years are minimal. Eventually, the $/month will flatten or even start to
rise.
> > This is about when you know you should start shopping for a new car. Of
> course,
> > if you get sick of running the car to the shop all the time, this is
another
> > good reason to get rid of the old car. If you have poor records, you
could
> still
> > start the calculation today. The cost still should be declining every
month,
> or
> > else you're due for a new car. (This approach is courtesy of a senior
citizen
> > acquaintance of mine. I'm still mulling over its usefulness given the
time it
> > takes, but so far it seems sound.)
> >
> > 2.
> > I disagree with your statement that one might as well buy a new car if
one is
> > considering a fairly new used car. Car's depreciate very quickly (like
the
> > instant you drive it off the lot, to use a hackneyed phrase). If one is
not
> > going to keep the car for at least about ten years, he more economic
choice
> > between a new car and a recently manufactured used car is the used car.
If one
> > is going to keep the car for over ten years, buy new, so you know the
car's
> > history well. If one is going to keep a car ten years or more, the
difference
> in
> > price between new and used tends to be trivial.
>
> Right. I like to switch every few years, which is why I was asking the
normal
> lifespans of auto transmissions and engines, as well as how much rebuilds
cost,
> and if there are any other huge common expenses besides those two items.
My
> casual policy is to buy a 4-year old car, use it for 4 years, and sell at
8
> years. For someone who only drives a car 4 years, that instinctively
strikes me
> as the best bang for the buck point, considering the risk of having the
> engine/tranny die while it's in MY driveway.
> I guess my question should've been: what's the oldest car that's still a
safe
> bet?
>
> > 3.
> > Certain Toyota and Honda models that are properly maintained will easily
go
> over
> > 200k miles and ten years in many climates. Other manufacturers' cars are
now
> > lasting this long, but Toyota and Honda are still ahead of them, from
what
> I've
> > read.
>
> Sometimes I wonder how much of a myth that is. From all the reliability
reports
> I've been staring at over the past ten years, almost ALL Japanese cars
that are
> handled from concept, through design, to assembly 100% by its parent (with
no
> Ford or Chrysler intervension) are equally reliable. Aren't there
thousands of
> people whose Miatas, Proteges, Mirages, and Maximas last as long as you
guys'
> apparently numerous 300K Accords? Consumer Reports data supports this, as
there
> are only 6 models of the recent past that didn't achieve consistently
> above-average reliability. Their names are Mazda 626, Mazda MX-6,
Mitsubishi
> Galant, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Nissan Quest, Isuzu Rodeo.
> My friend swears Nissans are crappier than Hondas or Toyotas, with their
fuel
> injectors dying a guaranteed death at some point shortly after 100K.
Don't know
> whether to believe him. (As a 95 200SX SE-R owner about to cross 100K, I
don't
> want to.)
>

My $.02...

My 1984 Mazda 626, made in Japan...sold at 196,000mi in 1996...AC was gone
and the exhaust manifold had a hole somewhere. Engine was fine, 5spd was
still original. New waterpump, new alternator, boots a couple of times, and
the gas tank rotted out under the rear seat.

1983 Nissan Sentra, made in Japan...sold at 138,000 mi in 1983...ac perfect,
engine perfect, tranny shot...lost 5th gear, ran fine in 1-4, door handle
broke off (exterior). Plastic parts on this car seemed to rot.

Current ride: 1990 Protege SOHC (yes Virginia, not DOHC), currently 206,000
mi, original motor and tranny/clutch. AC replaced last summer, and of
course the famous rotting plastic radiators keep cracking. CV joints a
couple of times, alternator once, water pump once (165Kmi & 132Kmi). This
was also made in Japan. My only problem now is the platinum plugs seemed to
be seized. Ooops.

Regards,

Richard

My '76 Chevette was dependable up to around 70,000 then everything
broke...sold it at 132,000 with only the engine and 3spd auto still working.
> > 4.
> > As another poster said, a lot of the cost analysis depends on how much
work
> you
> > do on the car yourself. Also, if one does a lot of one's own car
repairs, I
> > think the spreadsheet approach above isn't very useful. My senior
citizen
> friend
> > said I could consider converting my hours of car labor to $ and run the
> numbers
> > this way. This is an idea, but I also think it's pretty obvious when one
who
> > does one's own maintenance is having to do more than they want.
> >
> > 5.
> > I'm on my second alternator for my 1991 Honda Civic, 150k miles, bought
new. I
> > think the first died around 106k miles and 8 years, with mostly Northern
> climate
> > driving (which I think wears the battery and thus charging system more).
Maybe
> > check Consumer Reports April car issue for whether electrical problems
are
> worse
> > on Japanese cars. But I'm almost positive they're no worse on Honda and
Toyota
> > than on other makes of cars, as it would be something I'd have noticed
in my
> car
> > buying studies by now.
>
>

"Richard Smith" <mrpchatesspam@texas.net> wrote in message
news:t7ednaf8xL6jm6Dd4p2dnA@giganews.com...

[snip]

> 1983 Nissan Sentra, made in Japan...sold at 138,000 mi in 1983...ac
perfect,
> engine perfect, tranny shot...lost 5th gear, ran fine in 1-4, door handle
> broke off (exterior). Plastic parts on this car seemed to rot.

[snip]

Wow!

138k miles in less that a year...now that's something!


--
-Netsock

"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.insight.rr.com/cgreen/

"Crunchy Cookie" <LSC400@Yahoo.com> wrote
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote
> > 2.
> > I disagree with your statement that one might as well buy a new car if one
is
> > considering a fairly new used car. Car's depreciate very quickly (like the
> > instant you drive it off the lot, to use a hackneyed phrase). If one is not
> > going to keep the car for at least about ten years, he more economic choice
> > between a new car and a recently manufactured used car is the used car. If
one
> > is going to keep the car for over ten years, buy new, so you know the car's
> > history well. If one is going to keep a car ten years or more, the
difference
> in
> > price between new and used tends to be trivial.
>
> Right. I like to switch every few years, which is why I was asking the normal
> lifespans of auto transmissions and engines, as well as how much rebuilds
cost,
> and if there are any other huge common expenses besides those two items. My
> casual policy is to buy a 4-year old car, use it for 4 years, and sell at 8
> years. For someone who only drives a car 4 years, that instinctively strikes
me
> as the best bang for the buck point, considering the risk of having the
> engine/tranny die while it's in MY driveway.

I think that Hondas and Toyotas are going to last well over ten years and 250k
miles before needing a new engine or transmission, based on posts here and
Consumer Reports.

In other words, I think you could start aiming for a ten-year life of a Honda or
Civic without worry.

> I guess my question should've been: what's the oldest car that's still a safe
> bet?

You probably already know the following already, but just to reinforce the
thoughts:

I think answering your question precisely is difficult, since any car's
condition after a few years depends so much on how well it was maintained, how
many miles were put on it, and arguably the climate in which it was driven.

I believe Consumer Reports rates used cars (one way or another). Otherwise, I
think you're going to get pretty biased opinions from people here. For example,
I've owned only Toyota (used), Nissan (new), and Honda (new). I originally
started buying Japanese because of Consumer Reports and because even in the
1980s (when I bought my first car), people talked about how their little Datsun
or Honda or Toyota lasted forever compared to their American cars. I also worked
around a Subaru/Hyundai service shop for awhile. The Hyundais didn't last like
the Subarus and certainly seemed cheaply made (likewise, this was reflected in
the price). The Subarus didn't seem as reliable as my Honda.

> > 3.
> > Certain Toyota and Honda models that are properly maintained will easily go
> over
> > 200k miles and ten years in many climates. Other manufacturers' cars are now
> > lasting this long, but Toyota and Honda are still ahead of them, from what
> I've
> > read.
>
> Sometimes I wonder how much of a myth that is. From all the reliability
reports
> I've been staring at over the past ten years, almost ALL Japanese cars that
are
> handled from concept, through design, to assembly 100% by its parent (with no
> Ford or Chrysler intervension) are equally reliable. Aren't there thousands
of
> people whose Miatas, Proteges, Mirages, and Maximas last as long as you guys'
> apparently numerous 300K Accords? Consumer Reports data supports this, as
there
> are only 6 models of the recent past that didn't achieve consistently
> above-average reliability. Their names are Mazda 626, Mazda MX-6, Mitsubishi
> Galant, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Nissan Quest, Isuzu Rodeo.

I recall that every year when I check small cars in the April Consumer Reports,
the Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas always lead. Is the amount by which they
lead significant? Maybe not.

> My friend swears Nissans are crappier than Hondas or Toyotas, with their fuel
> injectors dying a guaranteed death at some point shortly after 100K. Don't
know
> whether to believe him. (As a 95 200SX SE-R owner about to cross 100K, I
don't
> want to.)

I think CR backs up the claim that Nissans are not as reliable as Hondas or
Toyotas.

Richard Smith wrote:
>
> My '76 Chevette was dependable up to around 70,000 then everything
> broke...sold it at 132,000 with only the engine and 3spd auto still working.

That sounds exactly like my father's '94 Pontiac Grand Prix. Engine and
tranny were fine (surprisingly), but seemingly everything else had problems,
especially the alternator. The car was on its 4th alternator when he got
rid of it last summer at a mere 146,000km (91,000 miles). He now drives a
2004 Toyota Corolla.

I drive a Japan-built '93 Honda Accord automatic that now has 211,000km
(131,000 miles) on it. The only unusual issues I have had with it were a
shot fan blower motor and a defective distributor bearing. Other than that,
just regular maintenance. It's been a great car. Engine and tranny run
like new, and everything works.

"Richard Smith" <mrpchatesspam@texas.net> wrote in message
news:t7ednaf8xL6jm6Dd4p2dnA@giganews.com...
> My $.02...
>
> My 1984 Mazda 626, made in Japan...sold at 196,000mi in 1996...AC was gone
> and the exhaust manifold had a hole somewhere. Engine was fine, 5spd was
> still original. New waterpump, new alternator, boots a couple of times, and
> the gas tank rotted out under the rear seat.
>
> 1983 Nissan Sentra, made in Japan...sold at 138,000 mi in 1983...ac perfect,
> engine perfect, tranny shot...lost 5th gear, ran fine in 1-4, door handle
> broke off (exterior). Plastic parts on this car seemed to rot.
>
> Current ride: 1990 Protege SOHC (yes Virginia, not DOHC), currently 206,000
> mi, original motor and tranny/clutch. AC replaced last summer, and of
> course the famous rotting plastic radiators keep cracking. CV joints a
> couple of times, alternator once, water pump once (165Kmi & 132Kmi). This
> was also made in Japan. My only problem now is the platinum plugs seemed to
> be seized. Ooops.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard

This is all very encouraging.

> My '76 Chevette was dependable up to around 70,000 then everything
> broke...sold it at 132,000 with only the engine and 3spd auto still working.

Not that I really care (hence why I didn't ask), but so, do you think the
average lifespan of American cars even hits 6 digits?

With Toyota, 20 years or 400,000 kilometers is normal, unless the body is
allowed to rust out. I checked out an -81 Tercel with 800,000 miles, the
original engine worked fine. In my estimation, by the time a Toyota is old
enough that its depreciation curve is flat, the repairs are not expensive
enough to justify buying a different car. Then again, I don't spend much on
repairs because I do them myself. I'm more motivated by non-economic
factors, they simply don't make any cars that I like better than the one
that I already have. The way the used car marked is going these days, I'd
say a used car for $5000 is the best way to spend money. It's undergone
most of its depreciation at that point, yet for that amount you can get a
car that has been well maintained and has no rust.

"Crunchy Cookie" <LSC400@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:YhO_b.391899$xy6.2203355@attbi_s02...
> I thought I'd get a little cost/benefit analysis discussion going. I've
always
> thought the best used-car deals were ones between, oh, 2 and 8 years old.
If
> it's too new, you might as well buy new, but if it's too old, you're just
asking
> for trouble, right? What's the average (range of) mileage where cars
start
> konking out to a higher expense than their value? Most people seem to
casually
> say between 100K and 200K; most consider 200K to be a long life. The
engine and
> transmission rebuilds are the only really huge items, right? How much
does
> rebuilding those cost? Anything else to watch out for?
> And is it me, or do Japanese car alternators die really easily?
>
>

Crunchy Cookie wrote:

> Not that I really care (hence why I didn't ask), but so, do you think the
> average lifespan of American cars even hits 6 digits?

100K is typical for even the worst budget cars.

150-200K is typical for domestics.

200-250K is typical for imports.

300K+ for a few like Volvo 240s and a few other specific vehicles.

Btw - the highet mileage car to date is a Volvo P1800. Over
1 million miles on the original engine.

Jon Dalton wrote:

> With Toyota, 20 years or 400,000 kilometers is normal, unless the body is
> allowed to rust out. I checked out an -81 Tercel with 800,000 miles, the
> original engine worked fine.

Wow. Buy that car. You could get a ton of money from the factory
or a mention or something if it hits 1 million miles. IIRC, only
a dozen or so cars have ever hit 1 million miles, and 800K is very
close.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:59:00 -0800, "Jon Dalton"
<groovin4god@hotmail.com> wrote:

>With Toyota, 20 years or 400,000 kilometers is normal, unless the body is
>allowed to rust out. I checked out an -81 Tercel with 800,000 miles, the
>original engine worked fine. In my estimation, by the time a Toyota is old
>enough that its depreciation curve is flat, the repairs are not expensive
>enough to justify buying a different car. Then again, I don't spend much on
>repairs because I do them myself. I'm more motivated by non-economic
>factors, they simply don't make any cars that I like better than the one
>that I already have. The way the used car marked is going these days, I'd
>say a used car for $5000 is the best way to spend money. It's undergone
>most of its depreciation at that point, yet for that amount you can get a
>car that has been well maintained and has no rust.
>

I agree. My '92 Corolla Wagon suits my needs just fine. They don't
make wagons anymore that are to my liking.

My needs are a small 'office on the road' that will haul my kayak
anywhere I want to explore.

Works great.

I like it.

I'm gonna keep it...<g>.

btw it 'only' has 160,000 miles on the clock...


Scott in Florida

"Crunchy Cookie" <LSC400@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9Sd%b.413137$na.800850@attbi_s04...
> "Richard Smith" <mrpchatesspam@texas.net> wrote in message
> news:t7ednaf8xL6jm6Dd4p2dnA@giganews.com...
> > My $.02...
> >
> > My 1984 Mazda 626, made in Japan...sold at 196,000mi in 1996...AC was
gone
> > and the exhaust manifold had a hole somewhere. Engine was fine, 5spd
was
> > still original. New waterpump, new alternator, boots a couple of times,
and
> > the gas tank rotted out under the rear seat.
> >
> > 1983 Nissan Sentra, made in Japan...sold at 138,000 mi in 1983...ac
perfect,
> > engine perfect, tranny shot...lost 5th gear, ran fine in 1-4, door
handle
> > broke off (exterior). Plastic parts on this car seemed to rot.
> >
> > Current ride: 1990 Protege SOHC (yes Virginia, not DOHC), currently
206,000
> > mi, original motor and tranny/clutch. AC replaced last summer, and of
> > course the famous rotting plastic radiators keep cracking. CV joints a
> > couple of times, alternator once, water pump once (165Kmi & 132Kmi).
This
> > was also made in Japan. My only problem now is the platinum plugs
seemed to
> > be seized. Ooops.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Richard
>
> This is all very encouraging.
>
> > My '76 Chevette was dependable up to around 70,000 then everything
> > broke...sold it at 132,000 with only the engine and 3spd auto still
working.
>
> Not that I really care (hence why I didn't ask), but so, do you think the
> average lifespan of American cars even hits 6 digits?
>

I would concur with Joseph's reply- I had a '92 Plymouth Grand Caravan that
I sold last year with 152,000 mi on it- 3.3l with the infamous 4spd auto.
The engine and tranny were fine but...

waterpump at 75Kmi, AC system at 80Kmi-total replacement, the friggin rack
blew it's seals at 100Kmi (that's just plain bad QA from the
supplier)...interior headliner was coming unglued from the windshield back,
the auto lock in the side doors was wiggy and would lock/unlock whenever you
hit a bump, and any hard turns resulted in the doors locking and the little
warning chime going off.

Turn on the lights and the toilet flushes....

However it did a nice job negotiating Colorado logging roads such at one
point it looked like a Range Rover commercial with all the wheels canted in
different directions and at one low point scraped the front air dam and the
rear bumper at the same time.
>