Honda Car Forum

Hi guys,

My 91 civic hatchback always has some new exotic problem after the other,
that no mechanic is ever able to figure out. I only end up find them out
myself after my dicussions on this newsgroup. Last time it was a seatbelt
beeper, then it was a faulty door switch, and now, after I got a new battery
becuase my old one died due to being drained so many times from electrical
problems etc, out pops a new problem. Damnit.
Yesterday I found by chance that my instrument cluster lights and front and
rear marker lights were on. I had parked it a few hours before and the
battery was close to dead, with all lights dim. I thought I forgot to switch
off again, but duh the switch was off. So I thought ok , the switch is
busted, and found the fuse for that cicuit under the steering wheel and
pulled it. But that didnt kill the lights! how strange is that! I mean, wow,
this means that the short is bypassing BOTH the fuse and the switch?? I also
exchanged the fuse with another neighbouring 10amp one, but that didnt
change anything. Finally I looked at the fuses in the engine compartment.
But they seemed to be only for blower/ac etc.
Could there be relay problem that causes this? Can you please tell me
exacty where under the dash this particular relay can be found ? But pulling
the fuse should take care of even and always open stuck relay, right?

To add another fact which may be related is that about a couple of times
earlier in the past few months I had noticed that the instrument lights had
gone out when I was driving. (the car ran fine and headlights etc were
fine). And then they seemed to work fine afterwards. Some loose connection I
thought?

Can Anyone PLEASE help me locate the short. Someone with experience with the
wiring may be able to point me to a place to look at.. I really cant afford
a trip to the mechanic over this, they charge $50 an hour and unknown time
to trace an electrical fault

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:06:40 -0500, "Elan7e Owner" <newsgroup@same.com> wrote:

|Hi guys,
|
|My 91 civic hatchback always has some new exotic problem after the other,
|that no mechanic is ever able to figure out. I only end up find them out
|myself after my dicussions on this newsgroup. Last time it was a seatbelt
|beeper, then it was a faulty door switch, and now, after I got a new battery
|becuase my old one died due to being drained so many times from electrical
|problems etc, out pops a new problem. Damnit.
|Yesterday I found by chance that my instrument cluster lights and front and
|rear marker lights were on. I had parked it a few hours before and the
|battery was close to dead, with all lights dim. I thought I forgot to switch
|off again, but duh the switch was off. So I thought ok , the switch is
|busted, and found the fuse for that cicuit under the steering wheel and
|pulled it. But that didnt kill the lights! how strange is that! I mean, wow,
|this means that the short is bypassing BOTH the fuse and the switch?? I also
|exchanged the fuse with another neighbouring 10amp one, but that didnt
|change anything. Finally I looked at the fuses in the engine compartment.
|But they seemed to be only for blower/ac etc.
|Could there be relay problem that causes this? Can you please tell me
|exacty where under the dash this particular relay can be found ? But pulling
|the fuse should take care of even and always open stuck relay, right?
|
|To add another fact which may be related is that about a couple of times
|earlier in the past few months I had noticed that the instrument lights had
|gone out when I was driving. (the car ran fine and headlights etc were
|fine). And then they seemed to work fine afterwards. Some loose connection I
|thought?
|
|Can Anyone PLEASE help me locate the short. Someone with experience with the
|wiring may be able to point me to a place to look at.. I really cant afford
|a trip to the mechanic over this, they charge $50 an hour and unknown time
|to trace an electrical fault

Rule #1 - When weird electrical problems arise, first check the grounds. All of
them.

Rex in Fort Worth

Do you have an alarm system in the car? Most alarm systems tie in to the
instrument / parking lights so that it can flash the lights when you arm
or disarm the alarm. If you have a faulty alarm system it could leave
your lights on even if the fuse for the lights is removed (the alarm
supplies current through its own fused circuit).

Elan7e Owner wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> My 91 civic hatchback always has some new exotic problem after the other,
> that no mechanic is ever able to figure out. I only end up find them out
> myself after my dicussions on this newsgroup. Last time it was a seatbelt
> beeper, then it was a faulty door switch, and now, after I got a new battery
> becuase my old one died due to being drained so many times from electrical
> problems etc, out pops a new problem. Damnit.
> Yesterday I found by chance that my instrument cluster lights and front and
> rear marker lights were on. I had parked it a few hours before and the
> battery was close to dead, with all lights dim. I thought I forgot to switch
> off again, but duh the switch was off. So I thought ok , the switch is
> busted, and found the fuse for that cicuit under the steering wheel and
> pulled it. But that didnt kill the lights! how strange is that! I mean, wow,
> this means that the short is bypassing BOTH the fuse and the switch?? I also
> exchanged the fuse with another neighbouring 10amp one, but that didnt
> change anything. Finally I looked at the fuses in the engine compartment.
> But they seemed to be only for blower/ac etc.
> Could there be relay problem that causes this? Can you please tell me
> exacty where under the dash this particular relay can be found ? But pulling
> the fuse should take care of even and always open stuck relay, right?
>
> To add another fact which may be related is that about a couple of times
> earlier in the past few months I had noticed that the instrument lights had
> gone out when I was driving. (the car ran fine and headlights etc were
> fine). And then they seemed to work fine afterwards. Some loose connection I
> thought?
>
> Can Anyone PLEASE help me locate the short. Someone with experience with the
> wiring may be able to point me to a place to look at.. I really cant afford
> a trip to the mechanic over this, they charge $50 an hour and unknown time
> to trace an electrical fault

Thanks for your replies guys, but no I dont have an alarm and I also dont
know *where* to check the grounds at.

But here what else I found. I told you that pulling marker and instrument
light fuse #8 did not affect anything. But then when I pulled another 15amp
fuse of the cigg lighter/interior lights etc, the marker and instrument
lights went out! So that fuse is not removed and now the new funny thing
that happens is that the radio/interior lights etc turn on and off with the
headlight switch !!

Please tell me whats going on!!
Surely SOMEONE must find this problem interesting enough to think about it!

It would seem that the short is connecting the marker circuit to the
interior lights/cigg lighter circuit. But that still doesn't explain why the
lights should stay ON always! (unless that is an always live circuit)
(All this is happening with no keys in the ignition by the way.)

hmm could it be that the short is IN the switch ? The one for the
headlight/marker/instrument/cigg/interior etc. together.

I also found that even with that fuse removed and everything off, the
current drain on the battery was 300ma. 0.3 amps! Thats a lot right? So I am
going to find that drain source next. My busted stereo possibly.

>"Elan7e Owner" <newsgroup@same.com> wrote in message news:c136a2

> I dont have an alarm and I also dont
> know *where* to check the grounds at.
>
> But here what else I found. I told you that pulling marker and instrument
> light fuse #8 did not affect anything. But then when I pulled another 15amp
> fuse of the cigg lighter/interior lights etc, the marker and instrument
> lights went out! So that fuse is not removed and now the new funny thing
> that happens is that the radio/interior lights etc turn on and off with the
> headlight switch !!

> It would seem that the short is connecting the marker circuit to the
> interior lights/cigg lighter circuit. But that still doesn't explain why the
> lights should stay ON always! (unless that is an always live circuit)
> (All this is happening with no keys in the ignition by the way.)

Possibillitites:

1) The ash tray bulb wire melts into the cigarette lighter.

2) The cigarrette wire burns into the marker lights because
someone use a wrong fuse for the cigarrette lighter.

Solution:

1) Cut the cigarrette lighter wire after the fuse.
2) Jump a 12 or 13 gauge wire, what ever is the size for it to the cigarrete lighter.
3) Problem solved.

This is a common problem due to neglect. The fuse
is design for a good purpose, such as fire prevention
and short circuits that could destroy expensive
computers. Never neglect the amp ratings.

--
Milo Munira

Hi Guys,

So I sat down with the circuit diagram from a haynes for 3 hours and I
htink I have found the problem, on paper at least. I dont know how to
physically look for it now.

Heres how the short HAS to look like to fit all observational evidence:

+___________________________________
| |
| |
15A Fuse 15A Fuse
Marker, Instr Lighter, Interior
lights etc light, radio etc.
| |
| |
| ___________ |
| / short |
headlight / Lighter, Radio,
switch / Interior Lights etc.
| / |
|_____| |
| |
| |
Marker lights, |
instrument |
lights etc. |
| |
| |
------------------------------------------------

So since he short bypasses both the switch and fuse, the marker etc stay on
because the circuit is completed from the always live (no switch)
lighter/InteriorLight path. So taking the fuse out or the switch make no
difference. But since the lighter fuse is now in the picture, taking it out
switches everything off.

The headlight switch now turning the interior lights/ radio etc on and off
is also explained because when the lighter fuse is removed( which I had to,
to kill the always on lights) , the only path is through the marker fuse.
And the interior lights/Radio simply becomes a parallel circuit to the other
, going through the same switch.

phew.
But now where should I look physically to find this in the car!

"Indiån §ummer" suggested that the problem might be the lighter and the
ash tray light. They are both in the same general location, and the ash
tray light comes on with the interior lights. Some cars even have an
illuminated ring around the lighter, is that the case with yours?

Elan7eOwner wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> So I sat down with the circuit diagram from a haynes for 3 hours and I
> htink I have found the problem, on paper at least. I dont know how to
> physically look for it now.
>
> Heres how the short HAS to look like to fit all observational evidence:
>
> +___________________________________
> | |
> | |
> 15A Fuse 15A Fuse
> Marker, Instr Lighter, Interior
> lights etc light, radio etc.
> | |
> | |
> | ___________ |
> | / short |
> headlight / Lighter, Radio,
> switch / Interior Lights etc.
> | / |
> |_____| |
> | |
> | |
> Marker lights, |
> instrument |
> lights etc. |
> | |
> | |
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> So since he short bypasses both the switch and fuse, the marker etc stay on
> because the circuit is completed from the always live (no switch)
> lighter/InteriorLight path. So taking the fuse out or the switch make no
> difference. But since the lighter fuse is now in the picture, taking it out
> switches everything off.
>
> The headlight switch now turning the interior lights/ radio etc on and off
> is also explained because when the lighter fuse is removed( which I had to,
> to kill the always on lights) , the only path is through the marker fuse.
> And the interior lights/Radio simply becomes a parallel circuit to the other
> , going through the same switch.
>
> phew.
> But now where should I look physically to find this in the car!

oops should have replied to that before.
Mine is a *very* plain car, there is no ash tray light, not even a
ciggarette lighter.
No power anything, no auto anything.

"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message
news:403681B8.322FF6B8@junkmail.com...
> "Indiån §ummer" suggested that the problem might be the lighter and the
> ash tray light. They are both in the same general location, and the ash
> tray light comes on with the interior lights. Some cars even have an
> illuminated ring around the lighter, is that the case with yours?
>
> Elan7eOwner wrote:
> >
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > So I sat down with the circuit diagram from a haynes for 3 hours and I
> > htink I have found the problem, on paper at least. I dont know how to
> > physically look for it now.
> >
> > Heres how the short HAS to look like to fit all observational evidence:
> >
> > +___________________________________
> > | |
> > | |
> > 15A Fuse 15A Fuse
> > Marker, Instr Lighter, Interior
> > lights etc light, radio etc.
> > | |
> > | |
> > | ___________ |
> > | / short |
> > headlight / Lighter, Radio,
> > switch / Interior Lights etc.
> > | / |
> > |_____| |
> > | |
> > | |
> > Marker lights, |
> > instrument |
> > lights etc. |
> > | |
> > | |
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> > So since he short bypasses both the switch and fuse, the marker etc stay
on
> > because the circuit is completed from the always live (no switch)
> > lighter/InteriorLight path. So taking the fuse out or the switch make no
> > difference. But since the lighter fuse is now in the picture, taking it
out
> > switches everything off.
> >
> > The headlight switch now turning the interior lights/ radio etc on and
off
> > is also explained because when the lighter fuse is removed( which I had
to,
> > to kill the always on lights) , the only path is through the marker
fuse.
> > And the interior lights/Radio simply becomes a parallel circuit to the
other
> > , going through the same switch.
> >
> > phew.
> > But now where should I look physically to find this in the car!

Hi guys,

I found the short, in a very odd place.
I DID suspect it could be something to do with my radio, which I had been
fiddling with for a long time, because my right speaker would cut out
intermittently (one of the million other weird problems, I keep having with
my car.This one was a issue known to happen in 91 civics due to cold solder
joints, I learned)

So the short is when the loose radio lights illumination (+) wire touches
the radio battery backup (+) wire. (They are next to each other and to the
right speaker (+) wire)
Weird huh. I guess the illumination wire is part of the marker lights
circuit, while the battey backup wire is from the always-on ciggarette
lighter circuit.

Whatever. Honda sux. So much time wasted and so much hassle

Thanks for posting the solution to your problem. I wish more people
would do that.

Elan7eOwner wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I found the short, in a very odd place.
> I DID suspect it could be something to do with my radio, which I had been
> fiddling with for a long time, because my right speaker would cut out
> intermittently (one of the million other weird problems, I keep having with
> my car.This one was a issue known to happen in 91 civics due to cold solder
> joints, I learned)
>
> So the short is when the loose radio lights illumination (+) wire touches
> the radio battery backup (+) wire. (They are next to each other and to the
> right speaker (+) wire)
> Weird huh. I guess the illumination wire is part of the marker lights
> circuit, while the battey backup wire is from the always-on ciggarette
> lighter circuit.
>
> Whatever. Honda sux. So much time wasted and so much hassle