Honda Car Forum

Okay....need some real Honda experts to work on this one!

During a severe cold spell here in upstate NY (-20) our Honda would not
start. It would turn over, but just wouldn't catch.

Last Sunday, during a warm spell (yes it broke 32), I was finally able to
get the car started, but it took me a long, long time. When it finally
started, the car seemed to run very poorly. Thinking that this was related
to trying to start it so many times, I took it for a test drive. It
continued to run poorly, particularly at idle. After it warmed up, the
Check Engine light came on.

I took the car home and jumped the blue connector to get the engine
code......code 43. This is an oxygen sensor problem and the manual says
that it is the oxygen sensor if the car runs well and a fuel delivery
problem if the car runs poorly. Therefore, seems to be a fuel delivery
issue.

At this point, I drive the car 3 miles to the nearest Honda dealership and
call them. After 4 days, I get a call that I have big problems. They tell
me that two cylinders show poor compression and that they found "gasoline
fumes" (I think this is what the said) in my antifreeze. They want over
$600 to replace the head gasket plus more money for anything they find wrong
when they get in there (warped head, cracked head, etc.).

So, I call my normal Honda mechanic (I did not take the car there because
he is farther away and I was not too keen on driving the car). He tells me
that in his opinion it is more likely a fuel problem. His hypothosis is
that I have a bad distributor cap that is causing a spark problem and
therefore there is excess fuel in the two cylinders that tested poorly. He
says they would show low compression if flooded with fuel. He also went on
to tell me that the people at the dealership are very young and
inexperienced. I can support this because when I called the dealership
about the engine code 43 the person told me that he was not familiar with
the check engine lights!

One other symptom I failed to mention is that the car pings during
acceleration. What do you think? Does this sound like a head gasket issue.
I will tell you that my daughter reported that the car overheated during the
holidays. However, she is very observant and pulled over and turned the car
off until it cooled down.

Any other theories? The car is a '93 Accord SE with about 140,000 miles.

Thanks,
Bill
=====================

Don't be a cheapskate and a bad parent... buy her a new car.





"If life were like a box of chocolates, everyone would be black and expire in 2
years."

Thus spake He Hate Retards on 1/23/2004 7:31 PM:
> Don't be a cheapskate and a bad parent... buy her a new car.

Pimpi, do you ever have anything productive to add?

Sheesh.

Anyhow. My $0.01. My '91 Accord (143,000) did something similar
earlier this week when it was about -6F out...hard start, crappy idle,
runs like crap no matter how warm the engine gets (I didn't get a check
engine light, however). On a whim, I started to pull plug wires one by
one to see if any one cylinder *didn't* affect the idle. Turns out the
#2 cylinder wasn't firing (cheap wire == bad wire). A tuneup later, and
it runs like a champ and starts easier. That may be something worth
looking at.

I'd still say have your other mechanic take a look at it, just because
of the overheating incident. It sounds like even if he comes to the
same conclusion, he's going to be cheaper than the dealer, and know what
he's doing a bit more than Joe "I just got my ASE" Mechanic over at the
dealer.

I had also heard (don't remember where) that usually with a bad head
gasket, two adjacent cylinders would have odd compression. I suppose
this depends on where the bad spot is though.

-moitz-

Thanks for the info. Not sure this matters, but they are claiming that the
#3 and #4 cylinders have low compression. #1 and #2 are fine. Would a
blown head gasket cause a code 43? It would have to cause the car to run
very rich or very lean.

Thanks,
Bill


"Moitz" <meuzelaj@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JFkQb.107566$5V2.495619@attbi_s53...
> Thus spake He Hate Retards on 1/23/2004 7:31 PM:
> > Don't be a cheapskate and a bad parent... buy her a new car.
>
> Pimpi, do you ever have anything productive to add?
>
> Sheesh.
>
> Anyhow. My $0.01. My '91 Accord (143,000) did something similar
> earlier this week when it was about -6F out...hard start, crappy idle,
> runs like crap no matter how warm the engine gets (I didn't get a check
> engine light, however). On a whim, I started to pull plug wires one by
> one to see if any one cylinder *didn't* affect the idle. Turns out the
> #2 cylinder wasn't firing (cheap wire == bad wire). A tuneup later, and
> it runs like a champ and starts easier. That may be something worth
> looking at.
>
> I'd still say have your other mechanic take a look at it, just because
> of the overheating incident. It sounds like even if he comes to the
> same conclusion, he's going to be cheaper than the dealer, and know what
> he's doing a bit more than Joe "I just got my ASE" Mechanic over at the
> dealer.
>
> I had also heard (don't remember where) that usually with a bad head
> gasket, two adjacent cylinders would have odd compression. I suppose
> this depends on where the bad spot is though.
>
> -moitz-
>

Thus spake WORSS on 1/23/2004 8:27 PM:

> Thanks for the info. Not sure this matters, but they are claiming that the
> #3 and #4 cylinders have low compression. #1 and #2 are fine. Would a
> blown head gasket cause a code 43? It would have to cause the car to run
> very rich or very lean.

That I'm not 100% sure of. When my car was doing this, there was a
very, very definite smell of unburnt gas in the exhaust, so it was
running very rich. I didn't let the car go into closed-circuit mode
before pulling wires, etc. in an attempt to find out what was wrong, so
I didn't get a code out of it. Now I kinda wish I had.

I am voting that with a blown headgasket it'd be running rich because
you'd have two cylinders that either aren't firing at all or are not
getting good combustion when they do fire. However, based on experience
with a blown headgasket (GM 3800 engine), the car become virtually
undriveable.

Wish I could be more helpful. Keep us posted.

-moitz-

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 02:41:17 GMT, Moitz <meuzelaj@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Thus spake WORSS on 1/23/2004 8:27 PM:
>
>> Thanks for the info. Not sure this matters, but they are claiming that the
>> #3 and #4 cylinders have low compression. #1 and #2 are fine. Would a
>> blown head gasket cause a code 43? It would have to cause the car to run
>> very rich or very lean.

Code 43 was 02 sensor right? Ethelene glycol (coolant) can coat the
02 and the readings will be inaccurate.. So yes, a head gasket leak
can kill an 02 sensor and that code might be set.

Next if 1 + 2 were ok, 3 and 4 were bad -- I'd say its probably a head
gasket or warped head. I remember a recent 94 Nissan Altima that I
put a new fuel injector in. A few weeks later it overheated and
warped the head. I did a cylinder leakage test and heard air in the
radiator on the cylinder I put the new fuel injector in. I reasoned
that forcing the cylinder to operate after being long dormant (they'd
been running on 3 cyl for a while) had taken out the head gasket, but
I was wrong. The head warped and needed to be straightened out by
..018".

I believe your dealership gave you the correct answer/estimate. Where
you decide to go with it is entirely up to you.

__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

The same cold-start symptoms could be a moisture-laden fuel system. I
would try a 12oz container of isopropyl drygas first.

My '95 Civic's headgasket began to leak anti-freeze into the oil at
around the 110,000 mile mark. I discovered this when I sent an oil
sample to Blackstone Labs and they confirmed this through
spectrographic analysis of the oil. Costs about $20. Don't bother with
the extra $10 "TBN" test to check for anti-freeze.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

However, the car ran like a top the entire time. I never knew I had a
problem.

--- Bror Jace

Thus spake Bror Jace on 1/24/2004 2:29 PM:

> My '95 Civic's headgasket began to leak anti-freeze into the oil at
> around the 110,000 mile mark. I discovered this when I sent an oil
> sample to Blackstone Labs and they confirmed this through
> spectrographic analysis of the oil. Costs about $20. Don't bother with
> the extra $10 "TBN" test to check for anti-freeze.
>
> http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
>
> However, the car ran like a top the entire time. I never knew I had a
> problem.
>
> --- Bror Jace

Now y'all are scarin' me. I'm thinking I might pay that $20 to have my
antifreeze looked at.

-moitz-

> Now y'all are scarin' me. I'm thinking I might pay that $20 to have my
> antifreeze looked at.
>
> -moitz-

extremely simle test, take the oil cap off, look inside and if it looks
grey and foamy the gaskit is blown. other indicator would be the
mysterous loss of antifreeze over time which would cause the car to
overheat when it get too low. if the car is at theis stage (losing
antifreeze slowly that is) it will not be long before the gaskit
completly fails and it will be un-driveable
Andrew